Disturbed...this AIN'T true about Mary, or is it?


#1

As most of you know, was explaining to people (like e-mail, etc.) about Mary, etc. and they told me this, that, etc. Well, after saying something about it, this person wrote me this disturbing e-mail and since I don’t know much about the Mary thing with Catholics, I’m not quite sure WHAT to believe or how Catholics would take this:

This is the EXACT quote (copied, pasted):

"Mary needed a Savior, just like us. She’s not ‘saving’ anyone now, and never did. An example of what you’re saying about her and Christ is similar to someone saying that Thomas Edison’s mother invented the electric light bulb because she gave birth to Thomas Edison. She didn’t… her son did. And I’m pretty sure Edison’s mother didn’t want credit for what she didn’t do. Biblically, it doesn’t appear that the real Mary would have wanted credit for what she didn’t do either. The woman was humble before God, which is why she allowed herself to be used by God. She gave God the credit and praise for HER salvation, and she pointed people to the real Savior… she didn’t try to get them to look toward her. The real Mary knew the truth.

So let’s take a look at the RCC’s Mary – better known as the Queen of Heaven. That ‘being’ is a false god according to scripture. She’s gone by many names over the years, but she is a liar, a conniver, a disreputable creature that’s been fooling people for centuries. Check out Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. That’s who the RCC Mary claims to be… the Queen of Heaven.

So please check it out… the name “Queen of Heaven”, “Mediatrix” “Co-Redemptress”, etc. were NAMES - TITLES that the RCC “Mary” claimed of herself. Those terms weren’t invented by men as a title for her, she told men/women that’s who she was. It’s not the real Mary! The real Mary would never try to imply that she is equal to or co-redemptress with God in the salvation of men.

So yes, you can think whatever you want, but please check some of these things out instead of just accepting them blindly because you get a good feeling when you attend the Catholic Church.

Faith and service to God is not based on feelings. It’s based on truth… and God is truth. And His word is truth."

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful, isn’t it? :mad: NOT!!!:banghead: I’m not an expert on interpretation of the Bible or Mary but…sounds like this could be an anti-Mary thing!


#2

[quote=Paris Blues]As most of you know, was explaining to people (like e-mail, etc.) about Mary, etc. and they told me this, that, etc. Well, after saying something about it, this person wrote me this disturbing e-mail and since I don’t know much about the Mary thing with Catholics, I’m not quite sure WHAT to believe or how Catholics would take this:

This is the EXACT quote (copied, pasted):

"Mary needed a Savior, just like us. She’s not ‘saving’ anyone now, and never did. An example of what you’re saying about her and Christ is similar to someone saying that Thomas Edison’s mother invented the electric light bulb because she gave birth to Thomas Edison. She didn’t… her son did. And I’m pretty sure Edison’s mother didn’t want credit for what she didn’t do. Biblically, it doesn’t appear that the real Mary would have wanted credit for what she didn’t do either. The woman was humble before God, which is why she allowed herself to be used by God. She gave God the credit and praise for HER salvation, and she pointed people to the real Savior… she didn’t try to get them to look toward her. The real Mary knew the truth.

So let’s take a look at the RCC’s Mary – better known as the Queen of Heaven. That ‘being’ is a false god according to scripture. She’s gone by many names over the years, but she is a liar, a conniver, a disreputable creature that’s been fooling people for centuries. Check out Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. That’s who the RCC Mary claims to be… the Queen of Heaven.

So please check it out… the name “Queen of Heaven”, “Mediatrix” “Co-Redemptress”, etc. were NAMES - TITLES that the RCC “Mary” claimed of herself. Those terms weren’t invented by men as a title for her, she told men/women that’s who she was. It’s not the real Mary! The real Mary would never try to imply that she is equal to or co-redemptress with God in the salvation of men.

So yes, you can think whatever you want, but please check some of these things out instead of just accepting them blindly because you get a good feeling when you attend the Catholic Church.

Faith and service to God is not based on feelings. It’s based on truth… and God is truth. And His word is truth."

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful, isn’t it? :mad: NOT!!!:banghead: I’m not an expert on interpretation of the Bible or Mary but…sounds like this could be an anti-Mary thing!
[/quote]

Hi Paris, Mary did say"Do whatever He tells you." Mary didnt speak many words in scripture. Another words look for Him not Me. :thumbsup: God Bless


#3

This is very much an “anti-Mary”, “anti-Catholic” thing.

Jesus brought Salvation to Mary as well as us. He did it prior to her conception – something very possible for Jesus, the Word who was present in the beginning, who is God, who is with God.

In biblical times, the mother or the king carried the title Queen. As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Jesus, who perfectly obeyed the commandment to honor His mother and father, would do no less than to honor Mary as the Queen of His Kingdom. Anything less would be a violation of the commandment.

As the woman who willingly said “yes” to giving birth to the second person of the Trinity, she played an important role in His mediation and redemption of the world. This makes her a co-mediatrix and co-redemptress. Her role is based upon her Son’s role, is far less than His and is far greater than our roles. Never, ever, has Mary or any informed Catholic claimed her role equals that of her Son’s.

By the way, every time we pray for others, we are acting as mediators. Is this sinful? No. Jesus is infinitely generous. Just as God, the Father, generously permits us to share in His creative role through the procreation of children, Jesus permits us to share in His mediation and redemption roles through prayer, sacrifice and suffering.

Please do not be alarmed by the blatant anti-Catholicism you will be faced with. The closer you come to Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life, the harder Satan will fight. He is not beneath using well-intentioned friends to accomplish this.


#4

All of this is the usual anti-Catholic, anti-Mary arguments. The person who wrote you the e-mail appears to be an anti-Catholic fundamentalist.

Go to the Catholic Answers library at this link and check out the information there, which will explain it a lot better than I can in a short post. (Otherwise I could be here all day, writing a disseration! :smiley: )

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

And if you have more questions, please post again and we’ll help you out.


#5

Yes Paris, you were just blasted by your typical anti-Catholic Mary basher. Don’t let it get to you.


#6

Right. That is Catholic teaching.

An example of what you’re saying about her and Christ is similar to someone saying that Thomas Edison’s mother invented the electric light bulb . . . . . Biblically, it doesn’t appear that the real Mary would have wanted credit for what she didn’t do either. The woman was humble before God, which is why she allowed herself to be used by God. She gave God the credit and praise for HER salvation, and she pointed people to the real Savior… she didn’t try to get them to look toward her. The real Mary knew the truth.

Right. That is Catholic teaching.

**So let’s take a look at the RCC’s Mary – better known as the Queen of Heaven. That ‘being’ is a false god according to scripture. She’s gone by many names over the years, but she is a liar, a conniver, a disreputable creature that’s been fooling people for centuries. Check out Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. That’s who the RCC Mary claims to be… the Queen of Heaven. **

This is pure hogwash, and you should know better. I am embarrassed for you. Mary claims nothing for herself. The “queen of heaven” in Jeremiah is a false pagan god: a non-being, in no way related to the Mother of Jesus. Moreover, The title “Queen of Heaven” derives from Mary’s Motherhood of Jesus, since he is the King of Kings. In the Old Testament, the title “Queen” was given, not to the spouse of the king, but to his mother.

**So please check it out… the name “Queen of Heaven”, “Mediatrix” “Co-Redemptress”, etc. were NAMES - TITLES that the RCC “Mary” claimed of herself. **
[font=System]
[/font]Those terms weren’t invented by men as a title for her, she told men/women that’s who she was.

Show me a Catholic source that states this.

It’s not the real Mary! The real Mary would never try to imply that she is equal to or co-redemptress with God in the salvation of men.

Calm down. Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is equal to God. In fact, it is painfully naive of you to claim such a thing. It shows that you know absolutely nothing about Catholic teaching – either about God or about Mary.

“Co-redemptrix” is not nearly the threatening title you claim that it is. But it is an idea that is clearly beyond your current stage of theological competence.

So yes, you can think whatever you want, but please check some of these things out instead of just accepting them blindly because you get a good feeling when you attend the Catholic Church.

Faith and service to God is not based on feelings. It’s based on truth… and God is truth. And His word is truth."

Indeed. When I actually did check these things out, I encountered all of the arguments you raise and found them to be utterly groundless. God is Truth. And his word is truth.


#7

First co-Codemtorix does not mean what some folks think it means. It means Mary was WITH Jesus for the redemption of mankind, NOT that she is on par or equal to Jesus. Jesus is God, Mary is not. Second Mary has never said and the Church has never said that Mary is equal to God or Jesus.

Mary is second only to God/Jesus, she is a creation of God. However since she was made to be the Mother of Jesus, she was given honors and graces above all humans and angels. It is from the Book of Revelations that we see her described as the woman clothed in the stars and moon, predicted to crush the head of the serpent.

Some Protestants dispute this claim, BUT who else gave birth to Jesus, whom the serpent wishes to devour ??? For many other passages they want to take a literal interpretation but for this they want to make a figurative analogy, WHY ??? It makes no sense but to conclude the most obvious answer that Mary is indeed the woman giving birth to the Savior as described by Revelations…

As Jesus’ mother, who is King of the Universe, Mary warrants the title Queen (Mother) of the Universe. IF Jesus is not King of the Universe, ask your friends who is ???

wc


#8

[quote=Paris Blues]As most of you know, was explaining to people (like e-mail, etc.) about Mary, etc. and they told me this, that, etc. Well, after saying something about it, this person wrote me this disturbing e-mail and since I don’t know much about the Mary thing with Catholics, I’m not quite sure WHAT to believe or how Catholics would take this:

This is the EXACT quote (copied, pasted):
[/quote]

I’m not an expert, either, but I do know that what this person is claiming about the Catholic teaching regarding Mary is wrong.

"Mary needed a Savior, just like us. She’s not ‘saving’ anyone now, and never did…Biblically, it doesn’t appear that the real Mary would have wanted credit for what she didn’t do either. The woman was humble before God, which is why she allowed herself to be used by God. She gave God the credit and praise for HER salvation, and she pointed people to the real Savior… she didn’t try to get them to look toward her. The real Mary knew the truth.

Actually, what he states here is true and is the “RCC” position on Mary except his misunderstands what Catholics mean when we claim Mary “saves” us. We mean that she is a help to our salvation not that she is the Savior. Too bad he is so eaten up with prejudice and misinformation he hasn’t looked into it for himself but just swallowed whole tired old attacks against the Church based in ignorance and/or hatred.

So let’s take a look at the RCC’s Mary – better known as the Queen of Heaven. That ‘being’ is a false god according to scripture. She’s gone by many names over the years, but she is a liar, a conniver, a disreputable creature that’s been fooling people for centuries. Check out Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. That’s who the RCC Mary claims to be… the Queen of Heaven.

Yes, let’s take a look at these charges. The title “Queen of Heaven” is not a dogma nor a doctrine of the Church but a pious belief that does not violate Catholic teaching on Mary and her proper place in salvation history. The citing of Jer. 7 & 44 has nothing to do with it except as a coincidence of wording. Mary is NOT a goddess and the Church has never taught that she is/was. As for the names he attaches to Mary, even a fictional Mary, that was uncalled for. This person needs a few lessons in courtesy.

So please check it out… the name “Queen of Heaven”, “Mediatrix” “Co-Redemptress”, etc. were NAMES - TITLES that the RCC “Mary” claimed of herself. Those terms weren’t invented by men as a title for her, she told men/women that’s who she was. It’s not the real Mary! The real Mary would never try to imply that she is equal to or co-redemptress with God in the salvation of men.

Here he is simply misinformed as to what these titles mean. Once again, one wonders why, if he really wants to know the truth, he doesn’t seek out Catholic resources that explain what these titles do mean and what the Church actually teaches about them. He seems to be content to take anti-Catholic charges at face value or he believes Catholic sources would deliberately lie about it. Either way, he is only robbing himself of learning the truth while hanging onto ideas he wants to believe rather than what is actaully true.

So yes, you can think whatever you want, but please check some of these things out instead of just accepting them blindly because you get a good feeling when you attend the Catholic Church.

I think before pot calling the kettle black he should have taken his own advice.

Faith and service to God is not based on feelings. It’s based on truth… and God is truth. And His word is truth."

If he truly wanted to know the truth he could easily find it. I think this only goes to prove that he isn’t interested in knowing what the Church actually teaches when he can revel in his superiority over Catholics. I wonder how that makes him feel? Pretty darned good, it would seem.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful, isn’t it? :mad: NOT!!!:banghead: I’m not an expert on interpretation of the Bible or Mary but…sounds like this could be an anti-Mary thing!

It’s not an anti-Mary attack but an anti-Catholic attack using his ignorance and bias mixed with a pinch of seeming truth to make it sound like he knows what he is talking about, but this is hardly orginial with him, but rather it is him accepting without question whatever anti-Catholic attacks make him feel superior to us dumb Catholics. Truly pathetic and not worth your time unless he has a much more open mind than he has demonstrated here.

(Edited for length)


#9

The Church has never taught that the Blessed Mother did not need a savior. She has taught and teaches that God elected to save her in a very distinct way, making her thereby a fit mother for the Son of God.


#10

Paris, you are at a point in your spiritual formation where you need to be learning rather than defending the faith. Take it easy! These Catholic bashers will distract you from your true mission right now: taking the Mary of Bethany role: sitting at His feet and “listening to Him.”

Good move to bring this here, though. We can take some of the load off your shoulders.


#11

Paris, please note the following:

(1.) Mary is the Ark of the NEW Covenant. Rev. 12. She carried the Word Made Flesh in her womb.

" 1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

(2.) Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. Luke 1:46 “46] And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord”

This has taken on new meaning for me. Using basic anti-Catholic teaching…we ALL KNOW the LORD doesn’t NEED ANY MAGNIFICATION from ANY of his HUMAN CREATIONS!!! RIGHT? Yet, God, in his plan still imparts graces and honor to His Mother. It’s undeniably scriptural.


#12

First of all, Thanks to Mrs Edison for raising a great kid who made it possible for me to read by the light of a bulb and not a candle. Big thumbs up to you.

Thanks to my mother in law for raising a great son, who is also now a great husband and father.

Thanks to Mary for saying Yes to God, and giving birth to our Lord. Who among us could even comprehend what she went through for the world? To know you’re giving birth to your son, who is also the Son of God. That is a blessing, and burden. Did Mary know what Jesus was going to have to go through for us? (this I don’t know) But she watched it all unforld, who could have bore that? To see your son give his life in such a brutal manner for the sins of man, to forgive those who were doing this to you. To LOVE those whe did this to you. Mary is not God. Mary is not the object of my worship. Just before Jesus died, he made sure that his mother was put in the care of his friend. He loved his mother, he HONORED his mother. He listened to his mother. Why should we do less?

Can you imagine when you die trying to explain to Jesus why you’ve been bad mouthing his mother all these years?


#13

Same Stuff Different Day :yawn:
They are wrong on so many things that they make it hard to know just where to start.

Catholics do believe that Mary was saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Mary did say “Do whatever He tells you”, which contrary to your friends’ remarks, is her whole message from day one.

No one in the Catholic Church says that the Blessed Virgin saves us…that’s just stupid as a box of rocks… Although I can attest to her influence in my return to the faith. It was attacks like this one that made me look into what the Catholic Church really does teach and convinced me that it was all true and that I needed to be Catholic. All my love for the Blessed Virgin is directed to her Son. Her saintly life and example leads me to try all the harder to love her son as much as I can.

Their “Queen of Heaven” remarks don’t wash anyway since Jesus is also called the King of Kings in the NT and that was also a pagan king’s title. The real “royalty” deserves the real title. Have a look at Revelation 12:1 and then tell yourself why we see her as the “Queen of Heaven”. That whole passage is about Mary, though prots disagree out of their biases.

They have no clue as to what the titles that Mary has are about…all they know is what some preacher has told them about it. They don’t (as usual) have a clue what Catholics really believe…just what they’ve been told we believe by preachers who are as ignorant as themselves. It would be pitiful if it wasn’t so nasty.

Many times…(as you’ve seen on here), discussions with such people are a waste of time.
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
Pax vobiscum,


#14

[quote=Church Militant]Same Stuff Different Day :yawn:
…all they jknow is what some preacher has told them about it. They don’t (as usual) have a clue what Catholics really believe…just what they’ve been **told **we believe by preachers who are as ignorant as themselves. It would be pitiful if it wasn’t so nasty.Pax vobiscum,
[/quote]

This agree with. I had a small discussion with a protestant friend who wanted me to join her (non-denom touchy feely feel good) church, and I was instead trying to get her to come with me. The arguments she had about Catholics was all Mary. I then asked her if she’d ever really researched and found out if it was true that we ‘worshipped’ Mary. She admitted she hadn’t, she’d just heard it for years. I told her there were some books she could read, but for a quicker, easier explaination, gave her some websites to go to, and invited her to church again. She didn’t come, but I’m hoping she looked at the sites. Maybe someday.


#15

Perhaps I should start reading the Cathechism and books on Mary before I start saying things what I THINK Catholics think. :banghead:
Yes, it’s a GREAT thing I wasn’t confirmed Saturday night…I am still ignorant of the Catholic faith! Ooops! Thank goodness for RCIA!!!:stuck_out_tongue:

I told ya I was ignorant of religion!!! Didn’t I?:crying:


#16

[quote=Paris Blues]Perhaps I should start reading the Cathechism and books on Mary before I start saying things what I THINK Catholics think. :banghead:
Yes, it’s a GREAT thing I wasn’t confirmed Saturday night…I am still ignorant of the Catholic faith! Ooops! Thank goodness for RCIA!!!:stuck_out_tongue:

I told ya I was ignorant of religion!!! Didn’t I?:crying:
[/quote]

Nobody is ignorant who knows where to look for answers.


#17

Catholics venerate (Webster - regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference) Mary we don’t worship her. There’s a difference. The Angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28, 30). Elizabeth called Mary "Blessed amoung women (Lk 1:42). Mary declares that “all generations shall call me blessed” (Lk 1:48). Catholics call Mary the “Mother of God” because she gave birth to Jesus, who is God. Elizabeth called Mary “the mother of my Lord” was she too wrong?

So let’s take a look at the RCC’s Mary – better known as the Queen of Heaven. That ‘being’ is a false god according to scripture. She’s gone by many names over the years, but she is a liar, a conniver, a disreputable creature that’s been fooling people for centuries. Check out Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. That’s who the RCC Mary claims to be… the Queen of Heaven.

Check this site out for more information on how to depose the above quote.
I hope this helps.


#18

First of all, Thanks to Mrs Edison for raising a great kid who made it possible for me to read by the light of a bulb and not a candle. Big thumbs up to you.

thank you. my thoughts exactly.


#19

Paris! I considered myself well-educated and I, too, was puzzled by the title “Co-Redemptrix” (my spelling may be wrong - forgive me). I’m a cradle Catholic and I thought, “huh?”. Luckily, I trust the Church enough to know that asking for explanations does not make me anything but faithful. Once I understood that the Holy Father was using the “co” in its pure form - meaning “with” - then I understood his writings on this subject.

Anti-Catholics have been using Jeremiah to attack Our Blessed Mother for a long time. Jeremiah was not refering to Mary - any true Biblical Scholar will tell you that - and so, like always, they throw mean things at you to try and shake your faith.

Remember, we as Catholics are priviliged to have three areas we rely upon for our source. Do not assume that the Bible someone else uses is a good source. Look to the Church for guidance and ask how to appropriately defend against this type of attack. You will sleep easier.


#20

[quote=Paris Blues]"Mary needed a Savior, just like us. She’s not ‘saving’ anyone now, and never did.

[/quote]

[font=Arial]This is correct and the Catholic Church agrees with this. Mary is not our Saviour. He now switches topics and uses an analogy to demonstrate an erroneous belief of what the Catholic Church teaches which makes his “point” [/font]irrelevent.

We don’t know what you said here so it’s difficult to respond to this section.

What claim was made regarding salvation and Mary’s role in it? Mary saves no one apart from Christ. She leads people to Him…

All true and Catholics agree

The last sentence here is an allegation lacking substantiation. Where’s the beef? “Queen of Heaven” does not equal “Is a God”. In the Davidic kingdom of the OT, the King’s mother (not wife) was automatically designated as Queen. Christ is the King of Heaven and Mary, as his mother, is Queen. In addition, they are not equal in status: the King is still the King. The queen is not a “female King”. Show me any Catholic literature ascribing deity to Mary. It doesn’t exist.

Again, the last sentence is an unsubstantiated opinion - what follows is an attempt to justify this opinion, and it fails because, again, it’s based on misunderstanding.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.