Divine Liturgy in Latin

I want to preface this question by saying that I am not attempting to cause insult or contention but I want to know this question.

In perspective of all the rancor that I have seen on this part of the board mostly directed from Orthodox to Catholic I would like to know if in a country where the majority language is latin would the Divine Liturgy be celebrated in Latin? My interest in this question is specific and I hope to unfold it as we hold this discussion.

Mosher,

In general the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the vernacular. There are, however, exceptions to this. Just as Latin became the “sacred language” for the Laitn Church, so too has Old Church Slavonic become a “sacred language” and some of the Slavic Churches use it, even when no one understands it.

The Melkite tradition (which is where I serve) uses Arabic and Greek as standard languages pretty much everywhere, and the language of the people is added as a third language.

I don’t know of anyplace where the Divine Liturgy was celebrated in Latin since, at the time of Christ, Greek was the lingua franca of the “civilized” world.

Deacon Ed

[quote=Deacon Ed]Mosher,

In general the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the vernacular. There are, however, exceptions to this. Just as Latin became the “sacred language” for the Laitn Church, so too has Old Church Slavonic become a “sacred language” and some of the Slavic Churches use it, even when no one understands it.

The Melkite tradition (which is where I serve) uses Arabic and Greek as standard languages pretty much everywhere, and the language of the people is added as a third language.

I don’t know of anyplace where the Divine Liturgy was celebrated in Latin since, at the time of Christ, Greek was the lingua franca of the “civilized” world.

Deacon Ed
[/quote]

Understood but I am asking the hypothetical. BTW I have a very low but some proficiency in Old Slavonic as I find it to be a very beautiful language.

[quote=mosher]Understood but I am asking the hypothetical.
[/quote]

Well then yes. Vernacular liturgy is a tradition, if there were such a country to speak true Latin as an everyday ‘street’ language there would be no problem using Latin in the Divine Liturgy. Romania could have come close to that at one time, as early Romanian was very much like Latin (although I am pretty sure they were first evangelized using Greek).

There is really nothing to prevent using Latin now, although there does not seem to be compelling a reason for it, I am quite sure there are texts for the Divine Liturgy in Latin.

+T+
Michael

[quote=Hesychios]There is really nothing to prevent using Latin now, although there does not seem to be compelling a reason for it, I am quite sure there are texts for the Divine Liturgy in Latin.

+T+
Michael
[/quote]

And here you go… :thumbsup:

The Latin version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, translated by Erasmus of Rotterdam, and made available especially for you by those pesky Orthodox in Turin…

ortodossia.org/sanmassimo/testi/2-preghiera/Doc-sez2-art1.htm

[quote=Padre Ambrogio]those pesky Orthodox in Turin…
[/quote]

I’ve heard about them. Just an awful bunch. Spend their time being helpful on Internet boards. Now they’re translating the Divine Liturgy into LATIN! Oh my! What’s next? PEWS?!

I suppose one could argue that it would be appropriate for the Orthodox Church being built in Rome Fr. Ambrose recently posted about. Then again, using Latin might explain why that church is doomed.

:whistle:

Forest-Pine
(Who is in a facetious mood and does hope the good Father sees the light-heartedness intended. And who is wondering what specific objection Mosher expects to hear from our Orthodox brethren. And who finds irony in the fact that Eastern clergymen are helping him in his cause!)

I don’t have an alterior motive save I sense sometimes that there is a feeling out there that everything of the West is bad and that East goes out of its way to avoid anything that it considers Western so my intent was to flesh out this question that I have by using this example.

[quote=Padre Ambrogio]And here you go… :thumbsup:

The Latin version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, translated by Erasmus of Rotterdam, and made available especially for you by those pesky Orthodox in Turin…

ortodossia.org/sanmassimo/testi/2-preghiera/Doc-sez2-art1.htm
[/quote]

Interesting… Desiderius Erasmus was (sometime in the near future) going to be in my signature. An underrated and rather unthought of Catholic from the Reformation period.

I’m somewhat surprised to see that he translated the Divine Liturgy of Saint John into Latin. :hmmm:

http://www.galleriaborghese.it/barberini/img/erasmo.jpg

[quote=Freeway4321]I’m somewhat surprised to see that he translated the Divine Liturgy of Saint John into Latin. :hmmm:

[/quote]

And Fr Serge Kelleher has translated it into Irish.


Today (2 April) is the commemoration of Saint Bronach of Glen-Seichis
See groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/2254

[quote=Fr Ambrose]And Fr Serge Kelleher has translated it into Irish.
[/quote]

Is it on the interwebnet?

mosher,

I don’t have an alterior motive save I sense sometimes that there is a feeling out there that everything of the West is bad and that East goes out of its way to avoid anything that it considers Western so my intent was to flesh out this question that I have by using this example.

While there are certain aspects about latter day Roman liturgical usages the Orthodox have problems with, these all are cases of things which are (in our view) corruptions of better, older Roman customs. For example, the Latin Church used leavened bread like we do for most of the first millenia A.D., and had an explicit epiklesis in the liturgy of the Mass as well for most of the first millenia. But the use of Latin is utterly inconsequential for us.

[quote=Freeway4321]Is it on the interwebnet?
[/quote]

Not that I know of.


Today (2 April) is the commemoration of Saint Bronach of Glen-Seichis
See groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/2254

[quote=Palamite]the liturgy of the Mass as well for most of the first millenia. But the use of Latin is utterly inconsequential for us.
[/quote]

I am not so sure, Palamite. The Latin brethren assure us time and time again that Latin is sometimes inadequate to express Christian theology. This is one reason they were forced to add the filioque into their Creed.

[quote=Fr Ambrose]I am not so sure, Palamite. The Latin brethren assure us time and time again that Latin is sometimes inadequate to express Christian theology. This is one reason they were forced to add the filioque into their Creed.
[/quote]

Oh, heare we go. And he is off. Fr Amborse is in the lead by taking the first irrational potshot at the Catholic Church. Who will be next, Orthodoc? St. MarkEofE? Palamite? Who will show themselves to be the least resonable? Will Fr. Ambrose maintain the lead? Tune in next time to see.

i know that st. pius x celebrated the divine liturgy in greek. i think the church saw latin, greek, and hebrew, as being more pius because they were the languages written above the cross. they have that historical connection to Christ himself who probably heard and maybe spoke latin. i guess aramaic can be included too among others. but not king james english which wasn’t even on the map then.

[quote=Freeway4321]Interesting… Desiderius Erasmus was (sometime in the near future) going to be in my signature. An underrated and rather unthought of Catholic from the Reformation period.
[/quote]

Indeed… and guess where he got his degree of Doctor of Divinity? TURIN!!! :slight_smile:

I’m somewhat surprised to see that he translated the Divine Liturgy of Saint John into Latin. :hmmm:

His Greek was at times questionable, but as a Latinist Erasmus was outstanding! His Latin Liturgy is an excellent translation, and is useful even now to understand some subtleties that may be lost in newer translations… all the more useful in these days in which we are witnessing new translations of the Divine Liturgy in various heretofore unsuspected languages.

[quote=tilis]Oh, heare we go. And he is off. Fr Amborse is in the lead by taking the first irrational potshot at the Catholic Church. Who will be next, Orthodoc? St. MarkEofE? Palamite? Who will show themselves to be the least resonable? Will Fr. Ambrose maintain the lead? Tune in next time to see.
[/quote]

How dare you omit my name among the least reasonable ones? :smiley:

By all means, let me enjoy my fair share of mud-slinging! :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=Padre Ambrogio]His Latin Liturgy is an excellent translation, … all the more useful in these days in which we are witnessing new translations of the Divine Liturgy in various heretofore unsuspected languages.
[/quote]

Irish Gaelic being one of the least suspected!! :smiley:

But we’re here! We’re proud, and we’re not going away!!! :yup:

An tsaigart Ambrois O Maonaigh

[quote=Padre Ambrogio]How dare you omit my name among the least reasonable ones? :smiley:

By all means, let me enjoy my fair share of mud-slinging! :stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

I beg your forgiveness for leaving you out of this most honorable list.

[quote=tilis]Oh, heare we go. And he is off. Fr Amborse is in the lead by taking the first irrational potshot at the Catholic Church. Who will be next, Orthodoc? St. MarkEofE? Palamite? Who will show themselves to be the least resonable? Will Fr. Ambrose maintain the lead? Tune in next time to see.
[/quote]

This is worthy of framing. Hmm, maybe I will do just that.

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