Divinity of Christ


#1

Hello All…

Can you please answer this for me?

Do You have to believe in the Divinity of Christ to be saved?

Do we have scriptural references or writing from the Mystics regarding those Atheist who were saved by God’s Mercy?

Any mention of this in Papal documents? Give me all you got.

many thanks

Atour


#2

I don't have any reference material here in the public library where I am logged on.

I would refer you to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed which is recited at Mass on Sundays (usually).

This creedal statement was developed at a couple church councils to address the Arian heresy, which was a heresy that Jesus was only a man and not divine.

But, this creedal statement was developed chiefly with an eye to the scriptures and to apostolic tradition.

The real to-and-fro, both sides of the argument, are described in a 5-volume set of books (1685 pages of reading) by (Lutheran-turned-Orthodox) professor of history Yaroslav Pelikan entitled something like "The History of Christian Doctrine."

The divinity of Christ is a chief issue of dispute over many centuries. Heretics (heresy means "choice") of one sort or another were always coming up with some out-of-context scriptural argument to dispute the divinity of Christ.

Whenever it emerged, the Unitarian Church disputed the doctrine of the Trinity, hence their name "Unitarian." Some thought there were three Gods (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Some disputed the divinity of the Holy Spirit.

that stuff in the Nicene Creed about Jesus being "one substance" with the Father is an insertion of Greek rationalistic philosophy into Christian doctrine. Some rejected the creed for this, not being a Biblical idea.

Jesus made many claims to divinity. Like, in the sermon on the mount, he says things like "you have heard" such and such from the Old Testament writings, but then he goes on "but I say" so and so. Only a divine person had this prerogative of superceding the scriptures.

You should get lots of responses to this one. It's been discussed in other threads.


#3

Thanks Sirach,

I suppose I am looking for a simple answer, is it yes?

thanks in advance...


#4

Yes but believing that alone is not sufficient to save you.

Atheists are not saved unless they repent prior to death. An atheist rejecting God even until death will go to Hell through their own choice.

The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is necessary for salvation, and you must die in a state of grace. To be inside the Catholic Church you must be sacramentally baptised as a Catholic, be Catholic through baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit), or baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance).
Outside these four types of baptism nobody is saved.


#5

Yes I agree.

But I have a book on Purgatory which has been given the Imprimatur by the Church and it relates many stores some even after death of repentance. There is also a Chapter in there which is headed: " A Day of Fervour to atone for the souls suffering for negligence in Spiritual duties"…

How do you explain the fact that Christ told the disciples to keep his divinity a secret when he was on earth?

Atheists can also be saved by good works like the rest of us… see Pascal’s Wager??

Thanks.


#6

Where in the bible did he say that?


#7

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:5, topic:333879"]
Yes I agree.

But I have a book on Purgatory which has been given the Imprimatur by the Church and it relates many stores some even after death of repentance. There is also a Chapter in there which is headed: " A Day of Fervour to atone for the souls suffering for negligence in Spiritual duties"...

How do you explain the fact that Christ told the disciples to keep his divinity a secret when he was on earth?

Atheists can also be saved by good works like the rest of us... see Pascal's Wager??

Thanks.

[/quote]

Good works on earth do not have any merit unless you die inside the Catholic Church, are baptised (one of 4 baptisms I mentioned), and die in a state of grace.

There is NO chance to repent after death. You have until your dying breath to repent. After that it is too late. The Church teaching is very clear on this. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go IMMEDIATELY to Hell.


#8

[quote="fred_conty, post:6, topic:333879"]
Where in the bible did he say that?

[/quote]

Hi Fred: I found this: (don't worry Im Catholic and I use a Catholic bible but I got this from the internet.:: )

This passage from Mark 8:27-30 (NIV) looks almost anti-evangelistic:

Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.


#9

Thistle Can you explain to me the “what the baptism of blood” is and also expound on the “implicit” baptism of desire for me, thanks.

Also… you say “Good works on earth do not have any merit unless you die inside the Catholic Church” but Christ specifically said he has sheep that are not of this fold? See john 10:16.

Do not misunderstand me I know that for the faithful, the Dogma and teaching you have quoted me is Pillar of truth and I personally accept it for the faithful.

I am sure the Church does not judge people, saying the masses that are not Catholic are hell bound that would be to disobey Christ teaching.

We know that ALL PATHS LEAD TO GOD… and I am wondering now if those that dismiss the divinity of Christ can still be saved? Certainly Christ said that people from the east and west will come and sit with Abraham for this Meal in heaven. We know this means people of all races does this mean creeds as well? We know that not all Catholics are heaven bound therefore it is also right to assume that all non- Catholics are hell bound either! The Gospel is in essence LOVE GOD AND YOUR NEIGH BOUGH.

Lets not forget the all the ecumenism that goes on, bring people together… Christ gathers… a lot of protestant and Jews knock this but this is a mark if the true church I think, its great to see.

And there was one other point but I forgot it sorry. thanks.


#10

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:1, topic:333879"]
Hello All.....

Can you please answer this for me?

Do You have to believe in the Divinity of Christ to be saved?

[/quote]

You have to believe in the Divinity of Christ to be a Christian; however, this belief does not automatically save someone. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:1, topic:333879"]
Do we have scriptural references or writing from the Mystics regarding those Atheist who were saved by God's Mercy?

[/quote]

Don't know, maybe. From what I'm aware of (which I will admit, isn't much) I believe the CCC states that those who are not Catholic through no fault of their own, but lived a good life as best they could with the graces God gave them, will be saved.

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:1, topic:333879"]
Any mention of this in Papal documents? Give me all you got.

[/quote]

Sorry, I got nothing.

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:1, topic:333879"]
many thanks

Atour

[/quote]

You're welcome.


#11

[quote="Hypnotoad, post:10, topic:333879"]
You have to believe in the Divinity of Christ to be a Christian; however, this belief does not automatically save someone. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Don't know, maybe. From what I'm aware of (which I will admit, isn't much) I believe the CCC states that those who are not Catholic through no fault of their own, but lived a good life as best they could with the graces God gave them, will be saved.

Sorry, I got nothing.

You're welcome.

[/quote]

Hypnotoad: God I love You thank you posting! I thought so, thank you for confirming !!! Such a weight off my shoulders!! The Truth shall set you free!!!


#12

[quote="Hypnotoad, post:10, topic:333879"]
From what I'm aware of (which I will admit, isn't much) I believe the CCC states that those who are not Catholic through no fault of their own, but lived a good life as best they could with the graces God gave them, will be saved.

[/quote]

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Not will be, may be.


#13

[quote="JM3, post:12, topic:333879"]
CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Not will be, may be.

[/quote]

Yes I understand that thank you quoting the Catechism for me...

You say - Not Will be, may be - that goes the same for us who are Catholic right? We are not Confident of our salvation but we have a sure hope?


#14

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:9, topic:333879"]
Thistle Can you explain to me the "what the baptism of blood" is and also expound on the "implicit" baptism of desire for me, thanks.

Also... you say "Good works on earth do not have any merit unless you die inside the Catholic Church" but Christ specifically said he has sheep that are not of this fold? See john 10:16.

Do not misunderstand me I know that for the faithful, the Dogma and teaching you have quoted me is Pillar of truth and I personally accept it for the faithful.

I am sure the Church does not judge people, saying the masses that are not Catholic are hell bound that would be to disobey Christ teaching.

We know that ALL PATHS LEAD TO GOD.... and I am wondering now if those that dismiss the divinity of Christ can still be saved? Certainly Christ said that people from the east and west will come and sit with Abraham for this Meal in heaven. We know this means people of all races does this mean creeds as well? We know that not all Catholics are heaven bound therefore it is also right to assume that all non- Catholics are hell bound either! The Gospel is in essence LOVE GOD AND YOUR NEIGH BOUGH.

Lets not forget the all the ecumenism that goes on, bring people together... Christ gathers... a lot of protestant and Jews knock this but this is a mark if the true church I think, its great to see.

And there was one other point but I forgot it sorry. thanks.

[/quote]

Baptism of Blood is when a non-Catholic dies for the Catholic faith. Such a person would be considered inside the Catholic Church.

Invincible ignorance applies to those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but in that ignorance live a life according to the teachings of Christ. They may (not will) be saved.
The Church does not define which individuals might be covered by invincible ignorance so whatever anyone tells you on this is opinion only.
In my personal opinion, in this day and age, hardly anyone in the world is likely to be invincibly ignorant.


#15

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:8, topic:333879"]
Hi Fred: I found this: (don't worry Im Catholic and I use a Catholic bible but I got this from the internet.:: )

This passage from Mark 8:27-30 (NIV) looks almost anti-evangelistic:

Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

[/quote]

We have to be careful not to take one scripture verse out of context. This is not an anti-evangelization command. This was before Jesus' passion, death and resurrection. The people then had a very worldly and military vision of the messiah. If He had been open about his identity at the start, they would have crowned him king and tried to get him to lead them in a military campaign against the Romans. Then he would not have been able to accomplish the mission he came for. He had to keep his identity quiet. :thumbsup:

At the end of the Gospel of Matthew, though, after his resurrection, when all was accomplished, then Jesus would say,

Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all that I command you. And lo I am with you always, to the close of the age. (Mt 28:18-20)

Now, the apostles are to tell everyone, the whole world, that he is the messiah. Jesus is not against evangelization, he commands it. Just not at that particular time.


#16

Do you have to believe in the Divinity to be saved? What did Jesus say?

If you don't believe every word Jesus spoke of and since He spoke of the Holy Spirit many times in the bible, then you are saying He is a part time God, you are in essence calling Jesus a liar. But, every word that came to Jesus Christ, came from above by the Holy Spirit. So why wouldn't a person who says they believe in Jesus Christ not believe Him on every word?


#17

[quote="Robyn_p, post:15, topic:333879"]
We have to be careful not to take one scripture verse out of context. This is not an anti-evangelization command. This was before Jesus' passion, death and resurrection. The people then had a very worldly and military vision of the messiah. If He had been open about his identity at the start, they would have crowned him king and tried to get him to lead them in a military campaign against the Romans. Then he would not have been able to accomplish the mission he came for. He had to keep his identity quiet. :thumbsup:

At the end of the Gospel of Matthew, though, after his resurrection, when all was accomplished, then Jesus would say, Now, the apostles are to tell everyone, the whole world, that he is the messiah. Jesus is not against evangelization, he commands it. Just not at that particular time.

[/quote]

But then you have that situation where he met a Samarithian woman at the water well and told her that he was the messiah. What's up with that?


#18

[quote="Robyn_p, post:15, topic:333879"]
We have to be careful not to take one scripture verse out of context. This is not an anti-evangelization command. This was before Jesus' passion, death and resurrection. The people then had a very worldly and military vision of the messiah. If He had been open about his identity at the start, they would have crowned him king and tried to get him to lead them in a military campaign against the Romans. Then he would not have been able to accomplish the mission he came for. He had to keep his identity quiet. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

:thumbsup:

31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Most often a single scripture verse is clarified by reading a few more......and in the context.:)


#19

hello

Just wanted to say thank you for the posts here.

I can see that I had possibly taken scripture out of context to prove a point; (Mark 8:30) I know that Christ had to die for our sins, but I’m on a forum with Muslims, Jews and Protestants and I just got side tracked… Yes indeed Christ did give the Catholic Church the Commission to evangelise the world and we have that call.

Thistle - I just wanted to thank you for your posts, but I wouldn’t make any assumptions about (nobody being invincibly ignorant) I heard some people have still never heard of Jesus in some parts of the world like India. My sources may be wrong though and I am not having a go at you. Peace. :thumbsup:

I also want to thank the previous poster for reminding me that not all who call Jesus Lord Lord shall enter heaven. Faith alone is not enough, I know this, been battering this one out too…

Thank you also for the Catechism reference, I Googled an online source for future reference, it is very re-assuring to know the Church has this base covered… So I assume CCC 847 refers to invincible ignorance?

So why do people say, " there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church?" When invincible ignorance is the exception? Or does the church encompass all of humanity? - i.e. whether or not they attend Church?

I know that heaven is full of Catholics. :thumbsup:

Many Thanks

Atour


#20

[quote="AtourDOMAN, post:19, topic:333879"]
hello

Just wanted to say thank you for the posts here.

I can see that I had possibly taken scripture out of context to prove a point; (Mark 8:30) I know that Christ had to die for our sins, but I'm on a forum with Muslims, Jews and Protestants and I just got side tracked... Yes indeed Christ did give the Catholic Church the Commission to evangelise the world and we have that call.

Thistle - I just wanted to thank you for your posts, but I wouldn't make any assumptions about (nobody being invincibly ignorant) I heard some people have still never heard of Jesus in some parts of the world like India. My sources may be wrong though and I am not having a go at you. Peace. :thumbsup:

I also want to thank the previous poster for reminding me that not all who call Jesus Lord Lord shall enter heaven. Faith alone is not enough, I know this, been battering this one out too...

Thank you also for the Catechism reference, I Googled an online source for future reference, it is very re-assuring to know the Church has this base covered... So I assume CCC 847 refers to invincible ignorance?

So why do people say, " there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church?" When invincible ignorance is the exception? Or does the church encompass all of humanity? - i.e. whether or not they attend Church?

I know that heaven is full of Catholics. :thumbsup:

Many Thanks

Atour

[/quote]

I did not say nobody. I said hardly anyone.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.