Divorce in Catholicism


#1

I know that Church doesn't allow divorce. I did however came across this passage

"But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery"

This seem to indicate that divorce is not allowed, EXCEPT in cases of adultery.
Any thoughts on this?


#2

=Bev17243;10634165]I know that Church doesn't allow divorce. I did however came across this passage

"But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery"

This seem to indicate that divorce is not allowed, EXCEPT in cases of adultery.
Any thoughts on this?

Bev, there is ONLY One Infallible rule for Right understanding od the bible... here it is:

Never, ever, Can, may or DOES on verse, passage or teaching make void, invlaidate or override another. Such a possibility would nullify the entire bible.:rolleyes:

In establising His one God; only one Faith and one Church Christ by absoulete necessity HAD to empower Perter and Successors to Administer this church.

Mt. 16:15-19
Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven"

The terms of "binding and Loosning" at that time made reference to Unlimited Powers of Governance.

Mt. 10: 1-8
"And having called his twelve disciples together, **he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. ** And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: ..And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils:

Clear evidence exist of Jesus passing on to the Apostles THROUGH Peter His very Own Godly Powers and authority.

Jn. 17: 17-19 "Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.** As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world*.** And for them do I sanctify myself, ***that they also may be sanctified in truth" {Jesus gives HIMSELF as warranty of this fact

Jn. 20: 21-22 "] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you.** As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.** When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost."

And again in Matt. 28:18-20 all of His Authority and Power is given to the Apostles

And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven"


#3

[quote="Bev17243, post:1, topic:323364"]
I know that Church doesn't allow divorce. I did however came across this passage

"But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery"

This seem to indicate that divorce is not allowed, EXCEPT in cases of adultery.
Any thoughts on this?

[/quote]

Bev,

Two thoughts:

First, it might be helpful to look at all of the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels that reference this topic. You'll find that there are subtle, yet critical, differences in the way that Matthew, Mark, and Luke present this teaching; all are necessary in order to reach an understanding of what Jesus is teaching here. So, be sure to check out Mt 19:9, Mt 5:32, Mk 10:11 and Lk 16:18.

Second, it's important to note that the word that's being translated as "fornication" in your example isn't, strictly speaking, the word for "adultery". It's the Greek word porneia, and although the KJV renders it 'fornication', the NAB offers 'unlawful marriage' and the RSV-CE, 'unchastity'. The question is whether the issue is post-marital sexual conduct, or whether it's marriage that's unlawful in the first place (e.g., the Levitical prohibition of marriage of close relatives).

So, it's not clear that one can reasonably interpret this passage as Jesus talking about exceptions that allow for divorce: there's sufficient reason to believe that He was talking about marriages that weren't (sacramental!) in the first place. That is, He's saying that, other than setting aside an immoral or invalid marriage, there's nothing that even looks like divorce that's a possibility!


#4

The Church does not prohibit divorce. The Church does now allow for remarriage after that divorce unless the first marriage is annulled. At least this is what I have observed. Divorce is a civil action that does not nullify the marriage in the eyes of the Church.


#5

[quote="Gorgias, post:3, topic:323364"]
So, it's not clear that one can reasonably interpret this passage as Jesus talking about exceptions that allow for divorce: there's sufficient reason to believe that He was talking about marriages that weren't (sacramental!) in the first place. That is, He's saying that, other than setting aside an immoral or invalid marriage, there's nothing that even looks like divorce that's a possibility!

[/quote]

This is the Church's interpretation, and is the basis for the concept of an annulment.


#6

Divorce is sometimes necessary, to separate spouses who have proven incompatible, sometimes due to abuse or neglect or incompetence with the children. It is also necessary when spouses part to achieve equitable distribution of the community property. The Church asserts that divorce should be "safe, legal, and rare". She attempts to make it unnecessary by rigorous prenuptial preparation and counseling. If a couple is unsuited for marriage, it is best to catch this before an indissoluble bond is created. A divorce is also mandatory before any investigation for nullity can be performed.


#7

If your wife commits adultery and you put her way. You have not made her commit adultery because she already has.

Is it a sin any way if you do divorce your wife for committing Adultery ?


#8

[quote="mary_bobo, post:4, topic:323364"]
The Church does not prohibit divorce. The Church does now allow for remarriage after that divorce unless the first marriage is annulled. At least this is what I have observed. Divorce is a civil action that does not nullify the marriage in the eyes of the Church.

[/quote]

The Church teaches that divorce is a sin against marriage, subject to some exceptions for an innocent spouse.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2382


#9

[quote="mary_bobo, post:4, topic:323364"]
The Church does not prohibit divorce. The Church does now allow for remarriage after that divorce unless the first marriage is annulled. At least this is what I have observed. Divorce is a civil action that does not nullify the marriage in the eyes of the Church.

[/quote]

I divorced my wife because she remained in adultery. If i got back with her does that mean i don't have to re-marry her because the marriage in not nulified in the eyes of the Church ?


#10

The greek word in the text is Pornia, which the Church has traditionally regarded in the ancient understanding (among the pagans) as ritual impurity or as we understand it today, any impedement to marriage which would make it invalid from the beginning.

Today a prior valid Sacramental marriage where both partners are still living, Or something else which invalidates it such as entering into the marriage with a contraceptive mentality or with the idea that if it does not "work out" they can separate and find someone else, etc.


#11

[quote="shaky, post:9, topic:323364"]
I divorced my wife because she remained in adultery. If i got back with her does that mean i don't have to re-marry her because the marriage in not nulified in the eyes of the Church ?

[/quote]

If your marriage was valid, you are married to her. You would probably want to renew your vows, as you would also have to comply with local civil laws in order to benefit from tax laws etc. But until one partner has died, a valid marriage is a valid marriage. If the issue comes up, your local parish priest can look into the details and make sure that there are no issues that need to be rectified.


#12

[quote="shaky, post:9, topic:323364"]
I divorced my wife because she remained in adultery. If i got back with her does that mean i don't have to re-marry her because the marriage in not nulified in the eyes of the Church ?

[/quote]

You would have to re-marry her because you are not married in the eyes of the State.


#13

[quote="Filioque, post:10, topic:323364"]
The greek word in the text is Pornia, which the Church has traditionally regarded in the ancient understanding (among the pagans) as ritual impurity or as we understand it today, any impedement to marriage which would make it invalid from the beginning.

Today a prior valid Sacramental marriage where both partners are still living, Or something else which invalidates it such as entering into the marriage with a contraceptive mentality or with the idea that if it does not "work out" they can separate and find someone else, etc.

[/quote]

Before i looked into the Catholic Church and i was having Problems with the teachings of some of the Protestant Churches i went to. I was not going to any Church when i met my Ex wife. She was reading the scriptures at the time but was not going to any church like me. She was never married before but had grown up children from a previous relation-ship with her previous partner. This was 3 years after i got cancer. I married her in a church of England Church. But we never went to that church and she was ''Never baptised''. Her tubes was tied so she could not have children. I was not to interested in having children because i thought it might be unfair to the child if i died soon. But we both did have thoughts about having children allot later in the future if i got the all clear from the cancer in a few years time and we could afford the Thousands of Pounds to reverse and untie her tubes.
Would that mean the marraige was invalid. Would a Catholic Bishop declare the marraige annuled ?


#14

[quote="shaky, post:13, topic:323364"]
Before i looked into the Catholic Church and i was having Problems with the teachings of some of the Protestant Churches i went to. I was not going to any Church when i met my Ex wife. She was reading the scriptures at the time but was not going to any church like me. She was never married before but had grown up children from a previous relation-ship with her previous partner. This was 3 years after i got cancer. I married her in a church of England Church. But we never went to that church and she was ''Never baptised''. Her tubes was tied so she could not have children. I was not to interested in having children because i thought it might be unfair to the child if i died soon. But we both did have thoughts about having children allot later in the future if i got the all clear from the cancer in a few years time and we could afford the Thousands of Pounds to reverse and untie her tubes.
Would that mean the marraige was invalid. Would a Catholic Bishop declare the marraige annuled ?

[/quote]

While it would seem from the surface that a valid sacramental marriage may not have occured, you would have to visit your parish priest and go over all the details, there may be something that either is not included in the post or we may not want to cover in a public forum which could effect the validity.

If one of you was never baptized, then it would have been a natural marriage and not a sacramental marriage. As for the rest, if you were not Catholic at the time, that may effect the determination, as you were not bound to some of the standards which Catholics are held to at the time of the CofE marriage. I'm no expert, so see your local parish priest.


#15

=Gorgias;10634412]Bev,

Two thoughts:

First, it might be helpful to look at all of the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels that reference this topic. You'll find that there are subtle, yet critical, differences in the way that Matthew, Mark, and Luke present this teaching; all are necessary in order to reach an understanding of what Jesus is teaching here. So, be sure to check out Mt 19:9, Mt 5:32, Mk 10:11 and Lk 16:18.

Second, it's important to note that the word that's being translated as "fornication" in your example isn't, strictly speaking, the word for "adultery". It's the Greek word porneia, and although the KJV renders it 'fornication', the NAB offers 'unlawful marriage' and the RSV-CE, 'unchastity'. The question is whether the issue is post-marital sexual conduct, or whether it's marriage that's unlawful in the first place (e.g., the Levitical prohibition of marriage of close relatives).

So, it's not clear that one can reasonably interpret this passage as Jesus talking about exceptions that allow for divorce: there's sufficient reason to believe that He was talking about marriages that weren't (sacramental!) in the first place. That is, He's saying that, other than setting aside an immoral or invalid marriage, there's nothing that even looks like divorce that's a possibility!

EXCELLENT REPLY my friend! Thanks:thumbsup:


#16

[quote="aemcpa, post:8, topic:323364"]
The Church teaches that divorce is a sin against marriage, subject to some exceptions for an innocent spouse.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2382

[/quote]

2385] Talks about disorder in the family and into society because the seperation of parents and the damage it does to the children.

Before People become catholic there are many women who have Married a Man who has been divorced. But now this married couple have children and are a family.

If either or both found out about Christ and wanted to become Catholic. The catholic Church would say this marraige is adultery.
What about the disorder in the family and society and the damage it will do to the children because this married couple having to seperate to avoid Adutery ?


#17

[quote="Gorgias, post:3, topic:323364"]
Bev,

Two thoughts:

First, it might be helpful to look at all of the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels that reference this topic. You'll find that there are subtle, yet critical, differences in the way that Matthew, Mark, and Luke present this teaching; all are necessary in order to reach an understanding of what Jesus is teaching here. So, be sure to check out Mt 19:9, Mt 5:32, Mk 10:11 and Lk 16:18.

Second, it's important to note that the word that's being translated as "fornication" in your example isn't, strictly speaking, the word for "adultery". It's the Greek word porneia, and although the KJV renders it 'fornication', the NAB offers 'unlawful marriage' and the RSV-CE, 'unchastity'. The question is whether the issue is post-marital sexual conduct, or whether it's marriage that's unlawful in the first place (e.g., the Levitical prohibition of marriage of close relatives).

So, it's not clear that one can reasonably interpret this passage as Jesus talking about exceptions that allow for divorce: there's sufficient reason to believe that He was talking about marriages that weren't (sacramental!) in the first place. That is, He's saying that, other than setting aside an immoral or invalid marriage, there's nothing that even looks like divorce that's a possibility!

[/quote]

Adultery only covers when your wife has sex with another Man or when a married man has sex with another woman. Jesus used fornication to cover many other cases of sexual Impurity and not JUST a invalid marriage
When you look at the Greek strongs 4202 Pornia/fornication/Idolatry. Surrendering of sexual Purity. Promiscuity of any [every] type.
This could include Incest. Lesbian or homosexual sex. bestiality sex. or Straight sex being unfaithful to the marriage.

Not sure if Masturbation/Pornography would come into the equation ?

Post Marital sexual Conduct would be very Judgemental especially because the Person has repented of this.


#18

[quote="shaky, post:13, topic:323364"]

Would that mean the marraige was invalid. Would a Catholic Bishop declare the marraige annuled ?

[/quote]

You present a complicated situation. Let's see if I can summarize what you've said:

[list]*]I'm presuming that, prior to your marriage to your ex-wife whom you mention, you had never been married, whether in a church or in any kind of ceremony. Is that correct?
*]Your ex-wife had never been married before you two were married, although she was in a relationship with a man and gave birth to children by him while they were together.
*]At the time of your marriage to your ex-wife, she had never been baptized as a Christian? Nor was she ever married during the course of the time that you two were together?
*]You don't mention your baptismal status. Were you ever baptized? When -- before marrying your ex-wife? After your separation? Was it baptism in a non-Catholic Christian denomination? Was the baptism by a Trinitarian formula (i.e., "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit")?
*]Your ex-wife had her tubes tied. Was this before you two were married? During the course of the marriage?
*]You and your ex-wife are now civilly divorced?
[/list]

As others have mentioned, a parish priest could go over all the relevant issues with you, and answer your questions more thoroughly (and authoritatively) than we might do, here.


#19

[quote="shaky, post:17, topic:323364"]
Adultery only covers when your wife has sex with another Man or when a married man has sex with another woman.

[/quote]

'Adultery' is the term that's used when a married person has sex with someone who isn't their spouse (whether that person is married or unmarried). 'Fornication' is the term that's used to indicate general extra-marital sexual relations.

Jesus used fornication to cover many other cases of sexual Impurity and not JUST a invalid marriage

Agreed. But, that's not the question: the question is whether 'porneia' means 'fornication' or 'adultery' or something else.

When you look at the Greek strongs 4202 Pornia/fornication/Idolatry. Surrendering of sexual Purity. Promiscuity of any [every] type.
This could include Incest. Lesbian or homosexual sex. bestiality sex. or Straight sex being unfaithful to the marriage.

That's one set of interpretations of the word 'porneia'. Strong's is a reference point, but it's not the end-all and be-all of scholarly linguistic knowledge. ;)

Not sure if Masturbation/Pornography would come into the equation ?

If 'porneia' is understood to address behavior, then you could make this case. The case that I'm making, however, (and which the Church makes) is that this word doesn't speak strictly to behavior. That is, Jesus isn't saying, "ok, you can't divorce unless your spouse does X, Y, or Z". Rather, the Church asserts that Jesus is saying that divorce is not possible; but, there are certain classes of unions that the world identifies as 'marriage', that really aren't 'marriage'. Such unions as these aren't indissoluble, since they're not valid sacramental marriages in the first place.

Post Marital sexual Conduct would be very Judgemental especially because the Person has repented of this.

When the Church evaluates the sacramentality of marriages, it can, in fact, look at post-wedding sexual conduct. However, the presence of sinful conduct, in itself, isn't sufficient to prove a case for annulment. However, if post-wedding sexual conduct demonstrates that (at the time of the wedding) the spouse did not intend marital consent in the way that the Church understands marriage (e.g., indissoluble, open to new life, with fidelity, etc), then such conduct may be seen as indicative of demonstrating that a valid sacramental marriage did not take place. It's a subtle distinction, and a fine line to discern.


#20

1] No i was never married before. 2] My wife was never married at any time eccept to Me nor was she baptised as a Christian. 3] I was baptised before i met my ex-wife and the baptism was in trinity formula. Father/Son/Holy spirit. I was baptised as a Infant at St Alban’s Garrison Church Aldershot. Then bapised Again in Protestant Church that believed Infant baptism was invalid. 4] My ex -wife tubes were tied before i met her before the marriage. 5] Yes we are now civilly divorced.


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