Do atheists presume that miracle witnesses are liars or stupid?


#1

After researching the Marian apparitions at Zeitoun my opinion of materialist skeptics has gone even lower than I could think possible. Their rationalizations are utterly stupid and they seem to believe everyone who experiences a miracle has no critical thinking skills. Millions, including scientists have also witnessed it, and they still give pathetic excuses like lighting due to earthquakes.

You should just read the comments they post of a man who got cured of MS on you-tube.

Are they just intellectually superior because they are atheists?


#2

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:1, topic:292699"]
After researching the Marian apparitions at Zeitoun my opinion of materialist skeptics has gone even lower than I could think possible. Their rationalizations are utterly stupid and they seem to believe everyone who experiences a miracle has no critical thinking skills. Millions, including scientists have also witnessed it, and they still give pathetic excuses like lighting due to earthquakes.

You should just read the comments they post of a man who got cured of MS on you-tube.

Are they just intellectually superior because they are atheists?

[/quote]

There are many atheists. They have many different ideas. I do not call myself an atheist, but I am sure you would call me by that name, and all the others you have listed. I have yet to see evidence of a miracle that convinces me that a force outside material forces was responsible. I am keenly interested in the fact that people believe in such things, ranging from reincarnation, to the miraculous appearance of the battle scares of the Prophet Mohammed on the bodies of believers, to the channeling of spirits, to the appearances of the mother of God. Perhaps you could identify for me a miracle which is independently observed, recorded effectively, and could not possibly have happened by normal material coincidence, or through fraud. The sort of things I would find acceptable as proof would be verified accounts of raising decomposing bodies from the dead, walking on water, changing water instantly into fine wine, and multiplying five loaves and five fishes into enough to feed a multitude. Somehow the miracles claimed today lack a certain, well, miraculousness, don't they?


#3

[quote="Hokomai, post:2, topic:292699"]
There are many atheists. They have many different ideas. I do not call myself an atheist, but I am sure you would call me by that name, and all the others you have listed. I have yet to see evidence of a miracle that convinces me that a force outside material forces was responsible. I am keenly interested in the fact that people believe in such things, ranging from reincarnation, to the miraculous appearance of the battle scares of the Prophet Mohammed on the bodies of believers, to the channeling of spirits, to the appearances of the mother of God. Perhaps you could identify for me a miracle which is independently observed, recorded effectively, and could not possibly have happened by normal material coincidence, or through fraud. The sort of things I would find acceptable as proof would be verified accounts of raising decomposing bodies from the dead, walking on water, changing water instantly into fine wine, and multiplying five loaves and five fishes into enough to feed a multitude. Somehow the miracles claimed today lack a certain, well, miraculousness, don't they?

[/quote]

fatima.org/


#4

Think of the reversal of the flow of the River of Jordan, or a man being cured of MS and having documentation. How about the millions who saw and many who filmed the apparition? You want undeniable proof, but I suspect that even if a man walked on water someone would argue that there is an unknown natural process that allows it.


#5

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:4, topic:292699"]
Think of the reversal of the flow of the River of Jordan, or a man being cured of MS and having documentation. How about the millions who saw and many who filmed the apparition? You want undeniable proof, but I suspect that even if a man walked on water someone would argue that there is an unknown natural process that allows it.

[/quote]

Post me a link, will you, to two different videos filmed from different angles of a miraculous apparition that is clearly of someone not of this world? Consistent audio recording would be good too. Or are the appearing beings unable to do so clearly, and talk at the same time? Or do they want to leave doubt for people like me? And if they want to leave doubt, why do they appear at all? Why not leave it to faith?


#6

[quote="THE_ENCORE, post:3, topic:292699"]
fatima.org/

[/quote]

Why did you post this link? There is no evidence of the kind I described here.


#7

zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

youtube.com/watch?v=CfmrqZwUjCQ

orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/theophanyepiphany-the-miracle-of-the-river-jordan-and-the-great-prophet-john-the-baptist/

The flowing reverses yearly so you can take a pilgrimage and see for yourself.


#8

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:7, topic:292699"]
zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

youtube.com/watch?v=CfmrqZwUjCQ

orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/theophanyepiphany-the-miracle-of-the-river-jordan-and-the-great-prophet-john-the-baptist/

The flowing reverses yearly so you can take a pilgrimage and see for yourself.

[/quote]

There's something a bit miraculous about your post - I can only see the second links when I hit 'quote' and then I cannot open them! I have seen the Eygypt ones before. I imagine that if there is a still-living Blessed Virgin and she wished to appear that she would appear in such a way that it was clear who she was and not as a wavy blob of light.


#9

[quote="Hokomai, post:8, topic:292699"]
There's something a bit miraculous about your post - I can only see the second links when I hit 'quote' and then I cannot open them! I have seen the Egypt ones before. I imagine that if there is a still-living Blessed Virgin and she wished to appear that she would appear in such a way that it was clear who she was and not as a wavy blob of light.

[/quote]

I have now seen the river Jordan 'reverse itself'. It is called an eddy. It is something that happens in all rivers by the banks. Ask an angler.


#10

[quote="Hokomai, post:8, topic:292699"]
There's something a bit miraculous about your post - I can only see the second links when I hit 'quote' and then I cannot open them! I have seen the Eygypt ones before. I imagine that if there is a still-living Blessed Virgin and she wished to appear that she would appear in such a way that it was clear who she was and not as a wavy blob of light.

[/quote]

You do understand that the actual people who saw her saw her doing things like bowing to the cross right?


#11

[quote="Hokomai, post:9, topic:292699"]
I have now seen the river Jordan 'reverse itself'. It is called an eddy. It is something that happens in all rivers by the banks. Ask an angler.

[/quote]

Really? Things flow from left to right, then flow from right to left, then left to right again when a cross is removed?


#12

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:11, topic:292699"]
Really? Things flow from left to right, then flow from right to left, then left to right again when a cross is removed?

[/quote]

Well, I would like to see some science behind those claims. The video certainly does not show it. River flows are very complex to model. I certainly don't see anything in the video that needs any sort of explanation.


#13

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:10, topic:292699"]
You do understand that the actual people who saw her saw her doing things like bowing to the cross right?

[/quote]

Her? Someone clearly saw a woman, and not a wavy blob? Any evidence?


#14

Real life is in color, not black and white.


#15

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:14, topic:292699"]
Real life is in color, not black and white.

[/quote]

Quite right. how about some colour, high-definition images of an apparition instead of these poor-quality hard-to-see ones?


#16

Because they are not available, but I don't believe that everyone who saw it was a fool who can't tell the difference between a blob of light and a human figure.


#17

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:16, topic:292699"]
Because they are not available, but I don't believe that everyone who saw it was a fool who can't tell the difference between a blob of light and a human figure.

[/quote]

I will live in hope that evidence is found. Remember that there are many spiritual experiences of crowds, and the crowds seem to believe different things, including believing in different Gods.


#18

Like in Fatima, even atheists witnessed it. They are not the ones who would easily accept any evidence of God, yet even atheists saw the apparition.


#19

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:18, topic:292699"]
Like in Fatima, even atheists witnessed it. They are not the ones who would easily accept any evidence of God, yet even atheists saw the apparition.

[/quote]

I have not seen any evidence that stands scrutiny on this point. Claims in newspapers don't do it for me, especially when they are in-translation, second-hand reports of unnamed observers or individuals who appear never to have backed up their claimed remarkable experiences in any other way. In any case I have not seen even a claim that an atheist thought he or she saw the Virgin Mary. just claims that people saw something odd happen to the sun (which didn't happen to the sun, since it was not observed elsewhere, so is not even a claim of a real miracle, but that is another story)


#20

Must sign off for a while now InJesusITrust. Thanks for the debate. All the best. Hoko


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