Do Baptist worship the same God as Catholics?


#1

I was reading that most Southern Baptist preachers now teach subordinationism. Catholics teach the Trinity.

What is subordinationism? (1 God with 3 unequal persons?)

Is subordinationism is a form of tritheism which is a form of polygamy and does this mean they teach multiple gods? (Like Mormons)

Are these Baptists still Christian? (Are Mormons then?)

Are they still Protestant?

Are their baptisms invalid like Mormons are?

Do Baptists in the pew know this?

Do Baptist members agree with subordinationism?

Where did this heresy start and when did it begin?

Any help and input would be of great help.:confused:

A prisoner of Christ


#2

[quote=Malachi4U]I was reading that most Southern Baptist preachers now teach subordinationism. Catholics teach the Trinity.
[/quote]

This is from the SBC website. It sounds like the trinty to me, what’s your source?
sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#ii
There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

Here’s a link. I believe that it means that either the Son or the HS are subordinate to God the Father
mb-soft.com/believe/txc/subordin.htm

According to the CCC, anyone can baptize if they use the trinitarian formula, so I would say that Baptist baptisms are valid.

This website
mb-soft.com/believe/txc/subordin.htm
says it has always been around, and that it was suggested in the writings of Justin Martyr and Tertullian.

Malachi,
I trust that your intentions are good in bringing this up, but just as Protestants should not assume that all Catholics are sedevacanists just because a few are, one should not assume that an entire denomination believes a heresy like this.

If you are looking for information on what Roman Catholics believe, you go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Likewise, it would be appropriate, when wanting to understand what Southern Baptists believe, to go to an official church teaching or website.

The CCC suggests that we should look for common ground with our Protestant brothers and sisters, and treat them with respect.

I have never met a Southern Baptist who believes this heresy, and the ones I have met have been good, honest people trying to serve the Lord.

Peace,
Iguana


#3

One must keep in mind that Mormons are not Christians, their beliefs are too far away from the truth to be accepted under this catogrization. Check on the mormon threads if you want more of a picture of what they believe.


#4

[quote=Malachi4U]I was reading that most Southern Baptist preachers now teach subordinationism. Catholics teach the Trinity.

[/quote]

I’d be curious where you read that.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a few SBC preachers taught subordinationism out of ignorance. I would be surprised if this number was much greater than 5%.

-C


#5

I am an ex-Baptist minister. I did not believe or teach this, nor was I taught this. In any case, having an incomplete knowledge of God does not mean one is not looking toward the one true God. If that were the case, all of us would be stuck since we all have a less than full knowledge of God. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, none of which knew of the triune nature of God. However, when everyone is there own interpreter of the Bible and own systematic theologian any sort of novelty and wackiness can enter into the minds of a few.


#6

Whoa, Nellie. Tritheism is a form of polygamy? I don’t think so.

Polygamy is the condition or practice of having more than one spouse at a time. In common usage, it includes polygyny (more than one wife at a time). It also includes polyandry (more than one husband at a time).

Technically, Mormons practice polygyny. (Mormon founder Joseph Smith also practiced polyandry by “marrying” women who were already married.) Polygyny (or polygamy) is now forbidden; Mormons have put the practice “on hold.”

Tritheism is the belief in three gods, especially that the three persons of the Trinity are three distinct Gods.

Just to be ‘perfectly clear’ :slight_smile: .

Oremus pro invicem, Jay


#7

[quote=Katholikos]Whoa, Nellie. Tritheism is a form of polygamy? I don’t think so.

Polygamy is the condition or practice of having more than one spouse at a time. In common usage, it includes polygyny (more than one wife at a time). It also includes polyandry (more than one husband at a time).

Technically, Mormons practice polygyny. (Mormon founder Joseph Smith also practiced polyandry by “marrying” women who were already married.) Polygyny (or polygamy) is now forbidden; Mormons have put the practice “on hold.”

Tritheism is the belief in three gods, especially that the three persons of the Trinity are three distinct Gods.

Just to be ‘perfectly clear’ :slight_smile: .

Oremus pro invicem, Jay
[/quote]

I’m thinking Malachai meant it was a form of polytheism and mistakenly typed polygamy. (I hope) :slight_smile:


#8

[quote=Katholikos]Whoa, Nellie. Tritheism is a form of polygamy? I don’t think so…
[/quote]

Katholikos,

Good catch!:thumbsup:

This was a* typo*. I meant to say tritheism is a form of polytheism.:o

Sad, I use a spell checker often but it still cannot read my mind - yet. Somday though?:hmmm:

Also, I attended an Independant Baptist church from the summer of 2003-spring of 2004. The preacher taught subordinationism and many of the members told me that the Trinity was wrong and invented by Catholics! I was told the original church founded by Christ, the Baptist church, never used the word Trinity. The Godhead I was told, is a ‘family’ of gods. The Holy Spirit is like the child, Jesus like the wife and the Father like well the father. There is a pecking order and authority in the Godhead just like we have one in some families still. This was the last straw for my wife too who attends Baptist churches. (she is still protestant and on her journey home - I hope? I reconciled when I learned the truth.) The Baptist preacher that taught this is about 69 years old so the concept has been around for awhile. I have heard this from Baptist from other churches too.


#9

Independant Baptist churches are a whole different story from the Southern Baptist Convention. I attended one in town, and they were very anti-Catholic. I also felt out of place because all the women were expected to be in floral print dresses!

I wouldn’t judge the SBC based on an experience with an independant Baptist church. They tend to be WAY off base, and not in line with conventional Baptist preaching.

The independant Baptist church in my area also supported Bob Jones University! :eek: This is not the normal Baptist way of thinking.

God Bless,
Iguana

By the way, what is your source for the claim that the SBC teaches subordinationism?


#10

[quote=pnewton]I am an ex-Baptist minister. I did not believe or teach this, nor was I taught this. In any case, having an incomplete knowledge of God does not mean one is not looking toward the one true God. If that were the case, all of us would be stuck since we all have a less than full knowledge of God. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, none of which knew of the triune nature of God. However, when everyone is there own interpreter of the Bible and own systematic theologian any sort of novelty and wackiness can enter into the minds of a few.
[/quote]

In my experience most Baptists I have known don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the Trinity at all. They believe it, they affirm it and they teach it, but you can’t have a very long discussion with them on the finer points of it.

There are two analogies by commonly used independent Protestants to explain the Trinity (egg - white, yolk and shell but one egg and water - ice, steam and liquid but all water) that are heretical. I really think they offer these analogies out of ignorance. If you push, you will get to “three persons, one essence,” but they use these analogies to explain the doctrine to children and general audiences. (Not that that makes it OK but this was how the Trinity was explained to me as a child.)

I developed the two dimension-three dimension analogy (this was before I heard about Flatland) that I mentioned in another thread to try to explain the Trinity in a way that made sense but wasn’t heretical like the egg or water.

-C


#11

[iguana27] I also felt out of place because all the women were expected to be in floral print dresses!

You didn’t challenge anyone to a duel did you?

The Duel

By Eugene Field
1850-1895

The gingham dog and the calico cat
Side by side on the table sat:
"Twas half-past twelve, and (what do you think)
Nor one nor t’other had slept a wink!
The old Dutch clock and the Chinese plate
Appeared to know as sure as fate
There was going to be a terrible spat.
(I wasn’t there; I simply state
What was told me by the Chinese plate!)

The gingham dog went "bow-wow-wow!"
And the calico cat replied "mee-ow!"
The air was littered, an hour or so,
With bits of gingham and calico,
While the old Dutch clock in the chimney place
Up with its hands before its face,
For it always dreaded a family row!
(Now mind: I’m only telling you
What the old Dutch clock declares is true!)

The Chinese plate looked very blue,
And wailed, "Oh, dear! what shall we do!"
But the gingham dog and the calico cat
Wallowed this way and tumbled that,
Employing every tooth and claw
In the awfullest way you ever saw —
And, oh! how the gingham and calico flew!
(Don’t fancy I exaggerate!
I got my news from the Chinese plate!)

Next morning, where the two had sat,
They found no trace of dog or cat;
And some folks think unto this day
That burglars stole that pair away!
But the truth about the cat and pup
Is this: they ate each other up!
Now what do you really think of that!
(The old Dutch clock it told me so,
And that is how I came to know.)


#12

Here is a link to the Southern Baptist Convention’s Baptist Faith and Message. It sure has expanded since my college years. I think you’ll find the doctrine on the triune God rather orthodox.

sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp


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