Do Catholics damn themselves by denying they worship Mary?


#1

(Note that this same question/argument applies when substituting “statues” for “Mary”)

Catholics are constantly accused by Protestants of worshiping Mary, the Mother of God. Catholics also constantly deny that they worship her. The question for Protestants making the accusation is this: if the accusation is true, WHY would Catholics deny it, and what would a Catholic expect the consequences to be if they did deny it?

Catholics and Protestants alike worship God, and neither would deny that worship under the most extreme duress (of course under extreme duress some would always cave in). Catholics and Protestants would at least want to believe that they would suffer and die before they denied worshiping God, because God is truly worthy of that worship and also, perhaps, because of the grave consequences that would result from such a denial. Catholics and Protestants are agreed up to this point.

But then many Protestants accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, and we vehemently deny it, and further claim it would be a grave sin to do so. Now, if Catholics truly believed that Mary was deserving of worship, what possible reason would they have for denying it and claiming it was a sin? What possible reason would they have for rejecting what would be one of their core beliefs (if the accusation were true), and damning themselves in the process? So the Protestants will like them better? Do we deny we believe in God so atheists will like us better? Do we deny the divinity of Christ so Jews and Muslims will like us better?

Even from a Protestant perspective, the accusation makes no sense, no sense at all.


#2

turnbacktogod.com/do-catholics-worship-statues-or-saints/
catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship


#3

Perhaps I should add that I am not having any personal problems whatsoever with this question. I KNOW we don’t worship Mary or statues, and that it would be a grave sin to do so. I just wanted to point out what I think is a glaring contradiction in the thinking of any Protestant who accuses Catholics of doing so.


#4

Catholics do not worship Mary.


#5

I know and affirm that. But we are constantly accused of doing so, especially by Protestants. I am suggesting that even from the point of view of those making the accusation, it is an illogical accusation.


#6

quote="snarflemike, post:1, topic:279647"

Catholics are constantly accused by Protestants of worshiping Mary, the Mother of God. Catholics also constantly deny that they worship her. The question for Protestants making the accusation is this: if the accusation is true, WHY would Catholics deny it, and what would a Catholic expect the consequences to be if they did deny it?

Catholics and Protestants alike worship God, and neither would deny that worship under the most extreme duress (of course under extreme duress some would always cave in). Catholics and Protestants would at least want to believe that they would suffer and die before they denied worshiping God, because God is truly worthy of that worship and also, perhaps, because of the grave consequences that would result from such a denial. Catholics and Protestants are agreed up to this point.

But then many Protestants accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, and we vehemently deny it, and further claim it would be a grave sin to do so. Now, if Catholics truly believed that Mary was deserving of worship, what possible reason would they have for denying it and claiming it was a sin? What possible reason would they have for rejecting what would be one of their core beliefs (if the accusation were true), and damning themselves in the process? So the Protestants will like them better? Do we deny we believe in God so atheists will like us better? Do we deny the divinity of Christ so Jews and Muslims will like us better?

Even from a Protestant perspective, the accusation makes no sense, no sense at all.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#7

lol join the club, we have jackets. Its an issue of ignorance. Its difficult to get the logic across to them but what should we tell the protestant?

"OK, you're right....sorry...ya, we have been worshipping Mary. I'm, so ashamed. You got me. Ill stop now"

Then we continue doing the same thing we have been. They really wouldnt know the difference! What Im getting at is that they dont really know at heart where and how we place Mary. They feel "guilty" to place ANY amount of attention on anyone other than Jesus Christ. Its as if they feel they betray him by praying to a Saint or the Queen of Heaven. So if we make a public proclamation that we have been worshipping her, only then will they be satisfied. Of course we would never do this but thats the only thing that would make them shut up. However, and here's the kicker- if EVERYONE just stopped EVERYTHING what they were doing that involved Mary, the protestant wouldnt even know it. Its the hypocrisy of ignorance.

We pray to Her so that She may present us her Son Jesus Christ. You know, if a woman can be healed simply by having the faith that reaching for Christ's cloak would be sufficient for him to come to her, how much more salvation to be found by reaching for his own mother!


#8

Oh my Goodness snarflemike,,its like you have listened in to some of my conversations;)

Why WOULD we deny worshipping Mary if we believed that by doing so would gain our salvation!

I cannot wait to hear how our protestent friends respond to this fantastic and obvious logic.:rolleyes:

Amen and Amen again for your post:thumbsup:


#9

quote="snarflemike, post:1, topic:279647"

Catholics are constantly accused by Protestants of worshiping Mary, the Mother of God. Catholics also constantly deny that they worship her. The question for Protestants making the accusation is this: if the accusation is true, WHY would Catholics deny it, and what would a Catholic expect the consequences to be if they did deny it?

Catholics and Protestants alike worship God, and neither would deny that worship under the most extreme duress (of course under extreme duress some would always cave in). Catholics and Protestants would at least want to believe that they would suffer and die before they denied worshiping God, because God is truly worthy of that worship and also, perhaps, because of the grave consequences that would result from such a denial. Catholics and Protestants are agreed up to this point.

But then many Protestants accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, and we vehemently deny it, and further claim it would be a grave sin to do so. Now, if Catholics truly believed that Mary was deserving of worship, what possible reason would they have for denying it and claiming it was a sin? What possible reason would they have for rejecting what would be one of their core beliefs (if the accusation were true), and damning themselves in the process? So the Protestants will like them better? Do we deny we believe in God so atheists will like us better? Do we deny the divinity of Christ so Jews and Muslims will like us better?

Even from a Protestant perspective, the accusation makes no sense, no sense at all.

[/quote]

It is funny the Protestant position. They seem so know our thoughts better than us.
Look, the Protestant are iconoclasts, their Churches are void of images. That is why any image or statue if for them worship.

Yet, they took Westminster Abbey in London and filled it with tombs of kings and noblemen and now it is ..... a museum ... I think ... I do not know whether there is any worship being done there ... that excellent Medieval Church.

Avoiding images is like prohibiting my mother of having my picture in her wallet because it would be .... worshiping me ....


#10

I worship Mary.

Worship used to be defined as giving to someone what is due, but we have allowed non-Catholics to control the conversation and define what worship is.

Now prayer, praise, going to Church to hear a sermon and listening to a Third Day CD are all lumped under the term "Worship" with no distinction. We have lost the idea of any distinction between the types and levels of worship - of giving what is due - and the result is that we are accused of giving to Mary what is due only to God. Then we go around reciting the mantra, "We do not worship Mary... We do not worship Mary..." and it does no good. I personally don't care any more.

Mary is a Queen.

The kings in the Old Testamant appointed their mother's to be queen and Jesus is no different. Jesus' mother is the Queen of Heaven and earth, and I prostrate myself before my King and bow before his Queen. Mary is the second most powerful in God's kingdom, second only to Her Son the King, and as the second most powerful person in God's kingdom, as a Queen who sits on a throne in Heaven, I give Mary what is her's by right.

If non-Catholic see me bowing before a statue of the Queen of Heaven and Earth, if they hear me praying to the Queen of Heaven and earth, and if they hear me telling the Queen of Heaven and earth that I love her, and then if they want to accuse me of worship, then so be it. I really don't care any more.

I give my Queen her due. I'm not ashamed of it.

-Tim-


#11

Maybe here are some useful thoughts on helping protestants understand.
I am involved in a couple of scripture study groups in our parish and outside, one having 3 protestant members. When we gather, the guys say a prayer, usually it is intentional prayer for the sick, family, etc...People ask for prayers for and from each other all the time. The protestant guys tend to come on with fairly eloquent impromptu prayers involving bringing the needs of people to Jesus' attention. I personally do not pray that way, preferring liturgical types of prayer. The subject of Mary came up once and couple of the guys were adamant that we should not pray to someone other than Jesus. My point to them was, at the start of our meeting we prayed for people who asked YOU to pray for them. If we believe there is a heaven and Mary is in it (what Christian doesn't?), she lives more fully than we do, right at Jesus' side. If it's ok to ask sinful humans to pray for each other, we can surely ask the sinless Mother of God, who dwells intimately in God's presence, to pray for us. This idea appeals to just about anybody's common sense. Where they still have a problem is the degree of the devotion, not the fact we pray to Mary. At that point, discussing Mary as a role model is useful, because she is THE role model of living alongside Jesus Christ.


#12

[quote="snarflemike, post:5, topic:279647"]
it is an illogical accusation.

[/quote]

Yup. Among others... :rolleyes:


#13

Well, the problem lies in one’s definition of worship, as TimothyH pointed out. I repeat this only to say that adoration of God demands something that devotion for Mary doesn’t–a sacrifice.

So, when our Protestant brethren demand we worship Mary we can turn it on it’s head and ask what sacrifice they offer to God. What? Just prayers? So where’s the sacrifice in that?

Oh, you say you believe Jesus offered the sacrifice for our sins “once for all”? Okay, so how do we make that present so we can be a part of it? Oh, prayer again? And exactly how do you do that? You don’t really know?

Okay, so if true worship requires a sacrifice (it always did in the OT which you, my Protestant brother love to cite), what sacrifice do you offer in your communal services? None.

They must make an issue of Mary so they won’t have to face the fact that they have tossed out true worship in favor of prayer being worship. It’s gives them an out, intended or not/understood or not on their part, for not giving to God what is due to him, which only Christ could give and which he gave us the means of offering–the representing of his one sacrifice of his body and blood.


#14

Thanks for bringing this up! It's a very good point :thumbsup:


#15

I think they just love accusing us…and we love defending our love for Mama Mary ---- sounds ok isn’t it…:slight_smile:


#16

The issue here is in the difference between worship and prayer/veneration:

It would be a serious mortal sin in violation of the First Commandment for anyone to worship anyone or anything other than God. At the risk of sounding obvious, Mary is neither a God nor any part of the God head. Neither Mary nor any of the saints are divine. That is why Catholics do not worship them. The same applies to statues and popes (I am always accused of worshiping the pope).

There is nothing in the Bible, however, that precludes praying to saints in the sense of simply talking to them, particularly asking them to intercede for us to the Lord. Veneration of saints simply means honoring them. One cannot reasonably deny that saints are worthy of honor – they either were martyred for their faith or lived a life of exemplary devotion to our Lord. These are encouraged by Scriptures rather than condemned. As for statutes and popes, we do not worship these, but rather we respect and obey the Church, her statutes, and her leader (the pope), because these have been ordained by the Lord himself.

In short, praying a rosary is good. Obeying the laws of the church is good. Offering the Mass to the Blessed Virgin Mary instead of our Lord is bad. More generally, keep in mind when doing devotions that the Lord is infinitely greater and more majestic than all the saints and angels combined.


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