Do i have to go to heaven or hell?


#1

The idea of heaven does not appeal to me the idea of hell does not phase me.

I discussed this with my young earth creationist friend and he was puzzled.

My thoughts, I do not want to go to a place where all I do is praise god for his greatness and worship him for all eternity. I only go to mass out of respect for my mother when she wishes me to come. There is no way i would out of my own will go for an hour let alone desire it for eternity.

Hell is a pretty horrible sounding place, but i don’t understand how i can feel pain since my nerve endings are already burnt of in the fires of hell anyway… Even if not if the pain was so extreme i would just pass out… Even still then existing in pain for a thousand years i would forget pleasure and it would be like, hey deamon torturer whats up, nothing much abbadon just the usual torturing you do you want a scotch on the rocks while i whip you untill you bleed, dont mind if i do deamon torturer don’t mind if i do … The pain would get rahter tedious. But at least it would be less tedious than worshipping god forver…

Anyway i wouldn;t be a catholic if i have to go to heaven, I may consider it if after i die i could cease to exist. I don’t want to exist forever.

So why should i be catholic then?


#2

You would if you were there. Plus Heaven isn’t an eternity of Mass. Read C.S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” (it’s short and interesting) for an idea of what Heaven might look like.

Hell is a pretty horrible sounding place, but i don’t understand how i can feel pain since my nerve endings are already burnt of in the fires of hell anyway… Even if not if the pain was so extreme i would just pass out… Even still then existing in pain for a thousand years i would forget pleasure and it would be like, hey deamon torturer whats up, nothing much abbadon just the usual torturing you do you want a scotch on the rocks while i whip you untill you bleed, dont mind if i do deamon torturer don’t mind if i do … The pain would get rahter tedious. But at least it would be less tedious than worshipping god forver…

Hell isn’t fire. Hell is being utterly alone with yourself, tormented by your own pride and sinfulness.

Anyway i wouldn;t be a catholic if i have to go to heaven, I may consider it if after i die i could cease to exist. I don’t want to exist forever.

Not possible. Even assuming it’s technically possible for you to cease to exist, only God could snuff you out, but to do that, you’d have to let him work on you, and if you’re willing to let him work on you, you’re willing to go through purgatory and eventually reach heaven.

So why should i be catholic then?

Because it’s true. It’s the only reason in the world.


#3

A couple of excellent books that I’d recommend to inform your ideas Heaven and Hell:

[LIST]
*]The Happiness of Heaven, by Fr. J. Boudreau, S.J.
*]Heaven: The Heart’s Deepest Longing, by Peter Kreeft
*]Hell, by F. X. Schouppe, S.J.
*]A Severe Mercy, by Sheldon Vanauken
[/LIST]

Dr. Peter Kreeft also has some excellent audio on Heaven on his website: www.peterkreeft.com


#4

I’ve actually been through the Kreeft site. It was a reference i was linked ot in proofs of god…


#5

I was just making an assumption of what heaven is according to mythologies I’ve been told by various people…

No matter what heaven is I still don’t want to live forever…

IF i end up in purgatory, that is all the evidence i need for the existance of an afterlife. It still would not indicate the existance of the christian god but it would affrim the existance of an afterlife. And then i could explore from there…

I’m sorry i see truths elsewhere and for me it’s just a story. A story i take simply as a story… Sorry it’s just my own flaws of logic, reason and a thirst for knowledge… Hehehehe if i was adam in the adam myth I’d be eating as much fruit from the tree of knowledge as i could get. Don’t need a snake to lure me. And I wouldn’t be scared of my nudity…


#6

You don’t now. You will then. That’s the contention of heaven: it isn’t really understandable in any clear way since we will have changed so much, become so much better than we are, so much realer, that our consciousnesses themselves will be vaster. And “forever” is possibly a slightly misleading term. There may be time in heaven, but it may be atemporal. We might simply exist in a perfected, happy state with all time existing coterminously. Not to say that we’re frozen like a picture, more like we would exist fully in the present.

IF i end up in purgatory, that is all the evidence i need for the existance of an afterlife. It still would not indicate the existance of the christian god but it would affrim the existance of an afterlife. And then i could explore from there…

Purgatory doesn’t work like that. If you’re in purgatory, you’ve already chosen God, possibly even only implicitly, so the knowledge of God becomes implanted in you as you are made perfect.

I’m sorry i see truths elsewhere and for me it’s just a story. A story i take simply as a story… Sorry it’s just my own flaws of logic, reason and a thirst for knowledge… Hehehehe if i was adam in the adam myth I’d be eating as much fruit from the tree of knowledge as i could get. Don’t need a snake to lure me. And I wouldn’t be scared of my nudity…

If you don’t think it’s true, I’m certainly not going to tell you to act otherwise. The practicing Catholic who thinks Catholicism is a lie is in trouble just as surely as the serial murderer or the sleazy pornographer.


#7

I think you meant “faze” (bother); not “phase” (stage of development).

If you and I go to Hell together, you would use incorrect spelling and grammar all day long, and then I would correct you all day long. :smiley:


#8

The only reason you don’t fear hell or desire heaven is that you lack (as we all do to a greater or lesser degree) a true appreciation of either. Certainly you don’t have an appreciation of eternity or of eternal bliss or punishment.

The point of heaven or hell isn’t what physically may or may not happen to us there, it may well not be that the same things happen to all of us. The point is whatever DOES happen to us in heaven will be blissful beyond anything we’ve experienced here, with no end to or diminishment of the utter joy.

On the other hand, whatever happens in Hell will be worse than the worst physical or emotional pain anyone could have on Earth, again with absolutely no possibility of an end to it or lessening of it, nerve endings or not. If that doesn’t faze you I’d suggest it’s because you’re not thinking seriously about it.


#9

From the point of view of another agnostic,

Heaven an hell are beliefs – there is no proof they exist (whether you think they are places or states of being). The horribleness of hell is inversely proportional to the evidence of its existence, and the same for the desirability of heaven. Hell is an extreme threat because it has to be in order to be effective emotionally, and to overcome the lack of evidence. Just as the creation of the universe is beyond observation and so convenient for the existence of god beliefs, so too is the non-experience of post-death convenient for the existence of afterlife beliefs. The reward of heaven and the threat of hell are used to keep the flock in line. A psychological ploy, fear, is used to gain converts and to prevent apostasy.

Beliefs in an afterlife are motivated by the instinct for survival, we are the one species who is aware of our own inevitable bodily death.

Heaven and hell are absurdly cruel if they represent final destinations of all souls. Why would God create a universe with the purpose of dividing the universe into haves and have-nots as the final state of creation? God is purposely creating a post-history universe with some souls in heaven and some in hell. The “here and now” is not much more than a winnowing out process for eventual heaven and hell occupants for eternity. As you believe, that is God’s final purpose and intention, to create infinite inequality.

That is why beliefs in heaven and hell are not taken seriously by me.


#10

lol

This thread is silly


#11

IF catholics are correct then i must prepare for the possibilty of hell. I mean it’s extremly improbable but still its intresting idea to entertain…

IF islam is correct then the catholics should start worrying

IF the Norse were correct, well we all should start worrying… except the people in the armies they’re fine…


#12

In hell your body is put to torment even to the point of utter destruction and maximum suffering. I don’t think you will be able to pass out, as passing out is a good provided to the body as a defense mechanism. No good is present there. Then the body is rebuilt anew for another onslaught but still with the imperfections and maladies you went their with. As with the loving interaction of angels to the fortunate chosen in heaven, the interaction here by demons is shear hatred and lack of love, and a continuous antagonistic environment This occurs for eternity. This is in keeping with our form as part physical and part spirit and God’s promise that in any of the two chosen places, the body will also experience what is appropriate for that place.

[fwiw: NDE’s have witnessed souls in torment. They are struggling grey whisps, not unlike a candle flame without light of their own, ready to extinguish but finding it impossible to do so, trapped in the destiny the person planned for it as animator, now cut off from it’s creator. They are seen in the bosom of the struggling body lacking any force of their own barely able to maintain form.]

Purgatory is a stopover, unpleasant but not a state of complete abandonment. On occasion you will receive visitors encouraging you. The Queen of Heaven, your guardian angel and the Saints will visit and comfort you, but all the same you will have hope and eventually enter heaven.

In heaven all your body’s imperfections and maladies are removed as these things cannot exist there as they are not good. Your soul communes with the spirit world and is welcomed home, and you will experience the joys of your soul, and you will have a whole new set of priorities and what was joyful here and dependant on experience, the senses and faculties, will pale to the joy you will experience there. Joys will emanate from within and have it’s source in God, a beatific gift for a service well done.

Everyone worthy of entering heaven becomes Catholic by default, and Peter through Christ ensures this on entry. So it is better to live Catholic and benefit from the protecting fruits of the Church(really Christ’s presence in this world) which only it in it’s entirety can provide, than to live a life vulnerable to things and entities that are jealous of your going to your inheritance. In this sense hell really starts here.

AndyF


#13

It really doesn’t matter whether you want to go to Heaven or Hell, or whether you do or don’t want to live forever. The fact is that you are already immortal, that is, you will live forever somewhere other than Earth. Whether it is Heaven or Hell is up to you. It’s one or the other.

Peace,
Linda


#14

Heaven is about being united to God, the source of all beauty, goodness, love, truth, even existence itself. Hell is simply the absence of God. I do not know if you physically burn in hell, or if you burn from your hatred for God, or if the burning is akin to the remorseful burning absence of God. Perhaps it is all three. Suffice it to say that either reality is a mystery beyond our comprehension at the moment.


#15

try going to calcutta and living on the streets and get some of the diseases they have, then start dying from them, a horrible death. The only people who will offer you relief are Mother teresas sisters who will give you dignity in your pain and suffering. The only reason they take care of the sick and dying is because they spend about 2-4 hrs a day in prayer with the blessed sacrament.

It sounds as if your life is far too cushy and pain free virtually because of the temporal pleasures this world has to offer. You obviously do not know the pain and suffering that billions have experienced on this earth. I will pray for enough pain that you will truly desire the love of God when all else fails. Imagine living without the grace of God surrounding you as you have it now, even as a non Christian, the grace of God is all around them. Take that away and there is but miserable existence in something totally unimaginable. You will have no nerve endings in hell, you won’t need them to feel the pain that lies there.


#16

Don’t know if you’re a sports fan, but I really enjoy watching certain highlights of Michael Jordan. The beauty and flawless execution of some of his shots! Let’s see the replay on that!

Don’t know if you enjoy nature, but I love the Rocky Mountains in autumn. The fresh smell, the colors, the sound of the wind rustling the leaves! I could spend hours there!

Don’t know if you enjoy food, but I really savor my wife’s lumpiang shanghai (Filipino meat egg rolls)! For once, I wish my stomach was bigger!

Don’t know if you like music, but I truly enjoy Chopin’s “Grande Polonaise Brilliante,” when played properly!

My point: I tire of all of these things eventually. Yet, I am sure I will never tire of the beatific vision of our Lord – His awesome splendor, the feeling of His infinite love. . . And, being God, there is no limit to it. It is beyond our comprehension – much like me trying to explain calculus to my dog – but I know my God will not disappoint.

God bless,
Dan


#17

well considering the insane amount of funds that were available 2 her… she did not do to much relatively… perhaps in her absence they will leave her fundamentalist beliefs on suffering behind and like many doctors (many of whom are atheist, some of the younger i personally know) that offer their time in 3rd world countries and actually cure the sick rather than merely prolong their suffering.

Catholisisum is not the reason to help others, people do good and evil because of the charchter traits within themselves not becuase of some deity and his opposer…

Wow ouch, praying for me to reveive pain, is that what jesus would do? We know from Job god would do it but i don’t have faith in god so why would he cause pain to me? So i would belive in him less?

Nyway you presumed to much about my past. The only grace that surrounds me is hte grace of my parents. God did in no way help us get out of a 3rd world country and to a better life in a first world one. I can attribute every step to my wonderfull parents and in no way will i take away that from them and attribute it foolishly to god. If all my parents did was pray all day we would still be stuck in sri lanka, i still would be a pickpocket and we would still be living in sub standard conditions. So what about you? What were your hardships and why is it even relevant that my first few years of life were suffering?


#18

I guess this thread is as good as any a time to state it, I’ve tried to love the god of the bible i really did. But now i’ve come to the realisation that i would be happy in a place with his absance. For I would find nothing happier than to be removed from a sadistic totalitarian megalomaniac, who enjoys recording his horrible and “for i am a vengeful god” nature in his holy text.


#19

If a sadistic, etc. god was the ‘real’ god, none of us would want to be with him.

But how can you be sure that your feelings, your interpretations, etc. reflect the truth of who God really is?

If to others God is beauty, truth, and life, would you say that they are ‘wrong’ and you alone are ‘right?’

Or if you say, “well, he is that for you, but not for me”, how can that be? If something is true it is true for all, not just for one or some.

You must also take into account, my friend, that for thousands, even millions, of people whose lives were as bad (and worse) than yours was at one point, God is still beauty, truth and life. Even when their particular circumstances seemed to be horrible, even diabolical, they still trusted that God is love, even if they themselves could not ‘see’ or ‘feel’ it at the time, or in a certain circumstance.

If the sun is shining outside, does it somehow ‘stop shining’ (physically speaking) for any given individual just because something bad happens? No, it doesn’t. Of course, to the person in distress, it may FEEL as though the sun is dimmer, or they may even be angry that the sun is going on through THEIR suffering. But to the person who actually trusts in God, what they LEARN from the suffering is more important. They may learn empathy–so that when somebody ELSE suffers, instead of just walking on by as they might have done had they themselves never experienced pain–they will help. They may learn other virtues. . .patience, charity, faith, hope, love, fortitude, etc. which they would never had learned had they constantly walked on ‘easy street’. Of course, nobody said that learning would be easy, or that it would seem ‘normal’ or ‘right’ in a world which seems hell-bent (literally) on ‘avoiding’ anything other than constant ‘pleasure’.


#20

Hell is a pretty horrible sounding place, but i don’t understand how i can feel pain since my nerve endings are already burnt of in the fires of hell anyway

**If you’d rather have hell than heaven, you’ll be given new nerve endings in your resurrected body that will be ever fresh and you won’t pass out, but will experience every moment of anguish fully.

So you need to revise your idea about hell.**


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