Do Jehova Witnesses really believe THIS?

I was in a friendly debate with some JW’s. The focus was on the trinity. I truly believe what they were telling me was not official JW doctrine.

They said that Jesus was with God the Father at the beginning of time. And after much debate they said they believe Jesus made the earth. They refused to say he created the earth. They didn’t want to say that all.

They would only say this when I showed them Colossians.

Colossians 1:15-18

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in** him all things hold together. **

What do you think?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are simply modern day Arians. This was addressed a long time ago. :wink:

They believe Jesus is the incarnation of Michael the Archangel.

They told me that God created Jesus and made Him another god.

The problem is they completely re-wrote their bible in the 1950’s so they believe what they read.

What is their distinction between creating and making the Earth?

According to Webster’s, create means causing the exitence of something from nothing. And “make” can mean the same thing.

If the JWs are distinguishing the two words, the could mean that Jesus made the earth out of substances that were already there.

Did your friends say who the Holy Spirit is?

From what I read, they believe Satan is a son of God too and Jesus is really the Archangel Michael. :frowning:

I could not find a common ground to discuss their beliefs with mine so avoided my JW neighbor and pray for her and her family.

Yes! And It took me time to believe that they believed that!

Pray for them. There are Catholics among them.

They believe that Jehovah created Michael (who would later be named Jesus once he came to the Earth) billions and billions of years ago. They also believe that Jesus is the only creation made directly by Jehovah. Jehovah used Michael to create all other creation. So technically, Jesus made the Earth, but was directed by Jehovah.

And the heck of it is, they also have a publication that came out in 1917 called “The Finished Mystery” that says that Michael is the Pope, and the angels are the Pope’s bishops! It was an obscure publication, so I’m not sure that most JW’s know about this. A few years later, Michael was upgraded to “Jesus”.

Wow, I had never heard of this. I looked it up in the finished mystery and sure enough it is there. Page 188 in the following link.

watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1917_The_Finished_Mystery_1918_edition.pdf

That’s just wild that you can go from Pope to Jesus in understanding who Michael is. Why can’t he just be Michael? It reminds me of how in the parable of the mustard seed, the sower was interpreted to be Jesus then Satan and then back to Jesus.

Was it the JW’s that interpreted the mustard seed parable that way? Anyway, the reason Michael can’t just be Michael and Jesus can’t just be Jesus, etc, is because the cults get their best traction by claiming they know something everyone else doesn’t. They “know” the Truth. It’s gnostic, “secret knowledge”. If you know the secrets, you are in the club. If you don’t, you’re going to hell. :smiley:

That makes sense from what they were saying. It is interesting what they won’t share.

I watched a debate between a JW and James White (reformed evangelical) on youtube the other night to hear how the JW’s got some of their biblical points. Very interesting and a great learning experience for me as I have some cousins who are JW.

I watched a lot of the video that you mentioned. I don’t know if you are aware that he is no longer a Jehovah’s Witness or that his direction about Jesus being a second god is not supported by the Watchtower. He seems to have made up his own reasoning for why Jesus is sometimes called a god in their Bible and publications. A lot of what he said about the old testament not supporting strict mono theism is never stated by JWs. Still interesting, but I would not mention any of his points to your cousins since they will simply say, “we don’t believe that.” Stick to the JW website and their major publications that they use to study with people. There is plenty of crazy in that.

Indeed! This is exactly why Catholics have such difficulty defending our own faith against what is misunderstood as to what the church teachings truly are. We should hold our selves to the same standard we expect those looking in Catholicism should be doing. :thumbsup:

Peace!!!

Pacloc, thank you for the info. I’ll have to research more about this guy. The JWs also have a channel on the Roku…haven’t watched a lot on there yet, either.

The easiest way to keep things straight with people like JWs, Mormons, and others that claim that Christianity apostatized in theology is to reason on issues that they can not defend. From a scriptural debate we could sit and argue forever whether or not Jesus is equal to the Father or lower. We could argue forever whether or not the wicked suffer eternally or are annihilated. JWs could use scripture to make almost any claim on subjects that are not explicitly described in full detail. We know that Christ himself claims that He purposely spoke in parables so that not everyone would know the fullness of the Gospel unless they were part of the Church. It is actually a very wise thing He has done, in that we can recognize false teachings easier. If evil men knew everything about true Christian doctrine, they could be a lot more dangerous.

I would not go much beyond the fact that their own reliance on “The Bible” means that all things written in it are true. This gets tough for them when it is very clear that Jesus would be with His Church until the end of time, and that Hell would not prevail against it. This means that it has never completely gone away as the cults claim. It means that the understanding of who Christ is could not have changed in the late 1800s. They believe that anyone that is not a Jehovah’s Witness is a false Christian, needing to be truly baptized into the JW religion. So they do in fact say that there are no JWs before them. The span from the 1st century to the late 1800s have no true Christians to them by their own logic. The other is Christ’s warning that false prophets would claim that Christ has come again already at a set time. JWs claim that Jesus returned in 1914. They also predict when He will act to destroy the wicked to be in a literal generation from 1914, they have had to modify their definition of generation multiple times now since 100 years has passed from that day.

If they cannot explain these simple contradictions, why would anything else they say carry any weight? I like to use the idea of someone that picks up a board game with all of it’s pieces but without any instructions. They could play a game for sure, they might even get close to the game developer’s intent, but at the end of the day, all they have done is created their own made up game using someone else’s material. For fantasy and fun this is okay, but when our lives depend on this, it is very dangerous. Their “game” they have created could be an interesting, somewhat reasonable game, but if it is not what the developer intended, then it is the wrong game.

Sorry double post

As a Lutheran, I most always hit them with the question that if they were to die today, would they know for sure that they would go to heaven? I can say that and most of those JWs with whom I speak cannot answer with certainty.

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