I have a hard time accepting they believe all of the stuff they say they believe in. Do they believe in the LDS gospel or just the LDS social club?
Wow. One short line and you have managed to insult a group of people who haven’t done anything to you in about seven different ways. Tell me; if a real Mormon answered you and said yes, he or she really believed, would you accept that?
perhaps I could ask you a question in return to illustrate just how offensive your question actually is.
Do Catholics actually believe all the stuff they say they believe in? Do they believe in the Catholic gospel or just the Catholic social club?
The answer is, of course…it depends on the Mormon. Just like Catholics, Mormons come in at all points on the belief spectrum.
Some are simply comfortable with the ‘social club’ and 'go along to get along." These are they who are most likely to leave because someone in the church does something wrong, or hurts them in some way. These are those who, if nobody ever crosses them, will probably live their entire lives without questioning their beliefs…or learning them.
Some are ‘true believers,’ who study their own faith extensively, study their history and accept it, warts and all, and who understand the doctrine and WHY it is what it is. They understand that doctrine is doctrine, and people are people, and people sometimes don’t act according to doctrinal principles; even ‘highly placed’ people sometimes don’t.
Mormons fall all along that belief spectrum.
Just as Catholics fall all along the belief spectrum that can be described in very much the same terms I just used to describe the LDS spectrum of level of beliefs.
As for me, well…
I’m not a ‘social’ Mormon.
How about you? Do you ‘really’ believe what you claim you do, or are you just a ‘social’ Catholic?
I’m an ex-Mormon who believes in Catholicism, but hardly ever goes to a Catholic social event outside of mass. I’m coming across all kinds of Mormons on the internet on various forums that won’t come out and state they believe that Joseph Smith actually translated the Book of Abraham. There are others who are active Mormons (even Mormons who work for the LDS Church) who poo-poo the idea that the events in the Book of Mormon really happened. They claim intelligent Mormons are aware Mormon scriptures are fiction but still believe in Mormonism. I’ve just been astounded by how many LDS stay in the club even though they claim to believe the Mormon scriptures are fiction. Some even claim they are fiction, but they are still true.
Yes, Mormons do really all believe in that stuff. Hard to believe anyone could be that ignorant to believe such nonsense. I guess that’s why they’re called a cult.
I’m not an ex-anything…except perhaps an ex-atheist, but I can say that everything you have written above, if you substitute “Catholic” for “Mormon,” and the JS translation of the Book of Abraham with ‘the virgin birth’ and ‘the bible’ for “the Book of Mormon and Mormon Scriptures” is applicable to Catholics.
yes, there are Mormons such as you describe. Some of them quite vocal. Most Mormons, however, are simply true believers who are not being hypocrites, the way you accuse them of being.
Just as, I suspect, most Catholics are not hypocrites.
I would appreciate it if, just because you are an ‘ex-Mormon’ and want to attribute the very worst of motives to every single Mormon that exists, that you wouldn’t do that.
For one thing, I rather suspect that you are victim of the new car shopper syndrome. You know what that is, right?
You are thinking about buying a new car, and have one in mind a bright red Mustang convertible…and suddenly you notice that there are a LOT of those specific cars on the road. You never noticed that before. Huh.
The fact is, you notice what you actively look for. The ratio of cars did not change simply because you suddenly see all those bright red Mustang convertibles. They didn’t suddenly all have colts and populate the road, and all those other cars are still out there. You just changed what you were looking for.
I suspect that you see all those ‘social’ Mormons because that’s what you are actively looking for.
Why question their sincerity? would mormon missionaries go overseas and risk their lives for something they didn’t believe?
Sure, there are weird things they believe, but there are weird things from every other religion. Is that where it ends? do we just poke fun at people because something they believe sounds funny? That’s not a road you want to go down.
“they” are called a ‘cult’ because the people calling ‘them’ that don’t like them. It is a word that means, according to the dictionary, 'religious belief."
In fact, the word “cult’ is an official CATHOLIC word, used in all honor to describe specific subgroups: the 'cult of Mary,” for instance. In that sense, ‘cult’ is a perfectly good, perfectly honorable, and perfectly fine, word.
However, outside that area, ‘cult’ is simply and only a pejorative that means one thing and one thing only: “I don’t like you.”
After all, you do realize that many Protestant groups call CATHOLICISM a 'cult," right…and they do it for exactly the same reason, and use exactly the same meaning, you use when you call Mormonism a cult.
And yes, we really do 'believe all that stuff."
That doesn’t make us ignorant, or stupid. It makes us different from you. However, since you are quite comfortable with being that offensive about other people, being different from you is a good thing.
Many of them really do believe. What that percentage of all LDS believe? I don’t know. When I was LDS, I had no idea there were significant numbers who didn’t believe many of the truth claims yet still attend.
I think many attend despite not believing all of the truth claims because Mormons are a tribe. It is more than a religion. It is a cultural identity. Many don’t want to give up the cultural identity.
When I was LDS, I really believed it. When I stopped believing it, I left. It would have been dishonest on my part to stay.
I’ve read that even a lot of Mormon apostles believe that Mormonism is false:
I was truly shocked when I entered the Catholic church to find out that people who claimed the title of “Catholic” didn’t believe in the Real Presence, Virgin Birth, etc. In fact, that still shocks me - and the people who claim to be Catholics who haven’t stepped foot in mass (except Christmas and Easter when they go home for Mom’s cooking) in YEARS.
Even so, I remember my G-mother saying, “it doesn’t matter if you believe what Joseph Smith did, he believed it, and you will, too.”
Diana, why do you feel the need to bring Catholicism into every thread you post on in the Non-Catholic Religions forum? The thread is about Mormons and their beliefs, not Catholics.
Is all you can do is point at Catholics and say “Look! Catholics do the same thing! Catholics are no better than Mormons! So there!”
I’m not sure what you mean by “that stuff,” but they are a cult because of how they follow the prophet.
[quote= Ezra Taft Benson; Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet 2/26/1980]In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” for our salvation hangs on them.
First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.
Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.
I’m going to have to agree with Diana and say that the OP’s observations are going to be observable amongst those of pretty much any religious persuasion.
That’s a relevant thing to point out. It doesn’t strike me as a uniquely “Mormon” issue. It’s human nature. Some people don’t give religious things much thought and are content to go along with how they were raised. Others have no problem living in the disconnect between belief and practice.
Whether it’s more common for Mormons (or any other particular group) is an assertion that would need to be backed up by statistical evidence rather than anecdotes.
There is no rational defense for Mormonism, so that is all she’s got. Point at the Catholic Church and attempt irrational comparisons.
When you are born and raised in a church like the LDS, it’s not that hard to “believe in those things they say they believe in”.
I had the opportunity while attending BYU-Idaho to sing in the choir for General Conference. Afterwards, i met with Elder Holland and President Eyring. Very humbling experience. Someone has mentioned that they heard that most authority members don’t believe its true. I have a hard time believing that.
I personally was born and raised in the LDS church, went on a mission and like mentioned, went to BYU-Idaho. Ironically, this is where my doubting started. The majority of people i met while at college only went to church to fulfill the honor code. And there were alot of behind the scenes action going on. The rising generation seems to shift more and more to the “sociable” side rather than the “believing” side.
I personally have lost my faith in the LDS church but it’s not because of “all that stuff” but rather because I never felt the spirit while attending church. The LDS church in my opinion is simply a social gathering place trying to mask itself as a church. You don’t need to rely on whether the BoA or BOM is true or false or even if Joseph Smith is a true prophet or not. Just go to their sacrament meeting and tell me if you feel the spirit or not. It’s the easiest way.
Though i do agree with Diana in one aspect, the LDS church does come under scrutiny the most on this website. I understand most are former mormons but that doesn’t give the right to attack peoples personal beliefs. For instance this OP’s statement is a jab at believing LDS members. It’s one thing to jab at the church but jabbing at a member because of their church is wrong.
Before we start to make light of what mormon’s believe…Try explaining the virgin birth to someone who has not a lot of experience with christianity. It is a humbling experience. You are liable to be asked the same question, “So do you really believe all that stuff?”
I don’t think so. This forum goes through waves of threads. Sometimes there are many LDS-related threads, sometimes not. Sometimes there are many Protestant-related threads, sometimes not (though more often than not there are, more than LDS threads). Sometimes there are Eastern Orthodoxy related threads, sometimes not. Sometimes there are Islam-related threads, sometimes not. I don’t think Mormonism gets more attention on this forum than other faiths.
First, because this is a Catholic forum…the ‘non-Catholic religions’ is all about everybody who isn’t Catholic, and those people to whom I respond are almost all Catholic. Therefore it’s appropriate because…
Second; I really don’t like hypocrisy. I do not think that it is acceptable behavior for the beam to mouth off about the mote. You will notice that I don’t make anything up; if the ‘Catholics’ DON’T ‘do it too,’ then there’s no way I can say it, is there?
I do notice that there are quite a few of you who are courteous, reasonable and reasoned debaters. These folks do not pull the sort of thing that would prompt a ‘Catholics do it too’ response. They address specific doctrines and ask specific questions, and don’t make the "Mormons eat babies and are racist homophobes’ sort of comments.
(and no, nobody here has accused Mormons of eating babies.)
I would agree and i’m not saying they get more attention. I’m not even saying it’s scrutiny of the LDS church itself. I’m just saying the quality of scrutiny specific to LDS members is greater than any other faith on this forum. I don’t mind scrutinizing faiths and finding truth but more often than not, threads are more of a “i told you so” battle than an actual intellectual battle.
The op is undermining the belief of LDS members, to me, that is wrong. Undermining the LDS church is one thing but not someones particular belief.