Do non-Catholic confirmations count for the sacrament of confirmation?


#1

For example, I think that all branches of Lutheranism have confirmation. Does this count as being confirmed in the eyes of the Catholic church? I ask because my mother thinks she wasn't confirmed when she converted to Catholicism, and I told her that maybe it was because she was confirmed as a Luthern, though I was unsure.


#2

[quote="benjammin, post:1, topic:298591"]
For example, I think that all branches of Lutheranism have confirmation. Does this count as being confirmed in the eyes of the Catholic church? I ask because my mother thinks she wasn't confirmed when she converted to Catholicism, and I told her that maybe it was because she was confirmed as a Luthern, though I was unsure.

[/quote]

No. A Lutheran confirmation does not translate into the Catholic Sacrament. The sacrament of Confirmation must be done by a Catholic bishop (except in circumstances where the bishop cannot be present in which case the bishop extends his authority to the local pastor specifically for that occassion). We do not believe that Lutheran clergy have the authority to perform sacraments other than baptism which, in extreme cases, can be done even by an atheist with the right intentions, matter and formula.

If your mother was a convert she had to have received the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, which she may have already had, Confirmation and Eucharist).


#3

Confirmation is a Sacrament of Initiation in which one completes his/her entrance into the Catholic Church as a full member and confesses the Church as the One True Church and making the visible statement that you are going to follow and believe what the Church teaches. Since Lutheranism, or anything other than Catholic for that matter, does not believe all that the Church teaches, and in some cases teaches against what the Church believes, confirmation in such churches does not declare a confession of the Catholic Church as the True Church or that you will follow Church teaching, and therefore does not count. This is one of the "Because it's not Catholic, it doesn't count." things, to put it in simplest terms. In terms of Sacraments (from what I can tell), in most cases no Sacraments except for Baptism and Marriage are considered valid.


#4

Confirmation, according to the Catholic/Orthodox churches must be performed by a bishop or priest with valid Holy Orders in Apostolic Succession. The Catholic Church recognizes the Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox churches as having valid Orders, but not the Protestant churches.

Therefore, the only sacraments performed in Protestant churches which the Catholic Church recognizes as valid are Baptism and Matrimony, as these do not require a minister with valid Orders.


#5

As Paul has pointed out it is not quite as simple as that, several hundred million Orthodox do have valid sacraments administered when they receive the sacraments of Chrismation along with Baptism and the Eucharist. Of course it might be argued that these Churches are part of the Catholic Church but many of our fellow Catholics are unaware of the fact sacraments are valid in these Churches and thus whilst your point holds true for Protestant ecclestical communities it is not true for Churches.


#6

Hence the use of ‘most’ and not ‘all’.


#7

[quote="SteveVH, post:2, topic:298591"]
No. A Lutheran confirmation does not translate into the Catholic Sacrament.

[/quote]

This is correct - Lutherans have a very narrow definition of what we consider a Sacrament: "an ct that is commanded by Christ, uses a material or earthly element, and through connection with the Word is the bearer of God’s promise"

If one is Lutheran and the becomes Catholic church, one should go through a Catholic Confirmation to align themselves with Catholic teaching.


#8

[quote="benjohnson, post:7, topic:298591"]
This is correct - Lutherans have a very narrow definition of what we consider a Sacrament: "an ct that is commanded by Christ, uses a material or earthly element, and through connection with the Word is the bearer of God’s promise"

If one is Lutheran and the becomes Catholic church, one should go through a Catholic Confirmation to align themselves with Catholic teaching.

[/quote]

So what about my mom's situation. She converted, and she swears she wasn't confirmed, and has even thought that it might be why some priests don't like her much ( she thinks they know all this stuff.... in case you didn't know my mom is crazy :o) Anyway, I'm almost sure she was at the easter vigil, but i'll never know since it was about a year before I was born and a few months before my parents marriage


#9

=benjammin;9775171]For example, I think that all branches of Lutheranism have confirmation. Does this count as being confirmed in the eyes of the Catholic church? I ask because my mother thinks she wasn't confirmed when she converted to Catholicism, and I told her that maybe it was because she was confirmed as a Luthern, though I was unsure.

NO:)

Here's why.

"Confirmation" as the name itself implies creates a personal Covenant relationship bwtween God; the person being Cinfirmed and the Church. [meaning its faith beleifs]

Because only Catholics hold to ALL of the Dogma's, Doctrines and Traditions of the CC; this Covenant must be made within the same "Faith-belief community".

It is NORMAL that anyone comming into the Church through RCIA would at that tiem ALSO be Confirmed. Although by a priest; it is neverheless both Valid and Licit.

A call to the pastor ought to clrear this uo for both of you. THANKS for asking.:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat /PJM


#10

[quote="benjammin, post:8, topic:298591"]
So what about my mom's situation. She converted, and she swears she wasn't confirmed,

[/quote]

I know my Church keeps really good documentation, so I suspect that the Catholic church does as well.

From this forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1620 we learn that she generally can't go through Confirmation twice as a 'just in case.' But she should talk to someone in authority who may be able to find the records, or who could perhaps find a solution to the problem.

I would say it would be worth the effort - being confirmed (and knowing you're confirmed) in the faith is powerful.


#11

[quote="benjammin, post:8, topic:298591"]
So what about my mom's situation. She converted, and she swears she wasn't confirmed,

[/quote]

Then can she explain how, exactly, she converted?

Typically conversion includes the profession of faith followed by confirmation and eucharist. These can be done at separate times, but it is rare.

[quote="benjammin, post:8, topic:298591"]

and has even thought that it might be why some priests don't like her much ( she thinks they know all this stuff.... in case you didn't know my mom is crazy :o)

[/quote]

I'd say I agree with you there. It isn't like someone can look at you and know whether or not you are confirmed.

[quote="benjammin, post:8, topic:298591"]
Anyway, I'm almost sure she was at the easter vigil, but i'll never know since it was about a year before I was born and a few months before my parents marriage

[/quote]

The parish where she entered the Church will have her sacramental records. She can request them. If by some bizarre happenstance she was received into the Church without being confirmed, she can always get confirmed.


#12

Actually in most Protestant churches other than Anglican confimation is understood differently than Catholics. For most Protestants like Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists confimation is mostly ad admission to Holy Communion.

Anglicans have pretty much the same understanding of confirmation, but their apostolic succesion and orders are in question. Thereby making their confimations invalid.


#13

[quote="andrewstx, post:12, topic:298591"]
Actually in most Protestant churches other than Anglican confimation is understood differently than Catholics. For most Protestants like Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists confimation is mostly ad admission to Holy Communion.

Anglicans have pretty much the same understanding of confirmation, but their apostolic succesion and orders are in question. Thereby making their confimations invalid.

[/quote]

Actually the correct order of the sacraments in the Catholic Church should be Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation as it is also called) followed by receiving the Eucharist. Pope Benedict has expressed his preference for restoring this order on a number of occasions.


#14

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:13, topic:298591"]
Actually the correct order of the sacraments in the Catholic Church should be Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation as it is also called) followed by receiving the Eucharist. Pope Benedict has expressed his preference for restoring this order on a number of occasions.

[/quote]

That will sure turn things on their head here in the good old USA. I think it is a great idea, however. Is this being practiced in Europe?


#15

Ironically, some Lutheran synods have gone the current Catholic direction of first Holy communion prior to Confirmation.

Originally Posted by andrewstx
Actually in most Protestant churches other than Anglican confimation is understood differently than Catholics. For most Protestants like Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists confimation is mostly ad admission to Holy Communion.

I think you underestimate a bit the importance attached to Confirmation in Lutheranism. It is quite a bit more than simply an admission to Holy Communion. Lutherans practice Confirmation after, generally, 2 to 3 three years of catechetical classes (at least for youth). So its firmly grounded in the teaching of the faith.

Jon


#16

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:13, topic:298591"]
Actually the correct order of the sacraments in the Catholic Church should be Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation as it is also called) followed by receiving the Eucharist. Pope Benedict has expressed his preference for restoring this order on a number of occasions.

[/quote]

Being Eastern Orthodox I agree with this completely. That is the order in Orthodox and most Eastern Catholic churches.


#17

[quote="JonNC, post:15, topic:298591"]
Ironically, some Lutheran synods have gone the current Catholic direction of first Holy communion prior to Confirmation.

I think you underestimate a bit the importance attached to Confirmation in Lutheranism. It is quite a bit more than simply an admission to Holy Communion. Lutherans practice Confirmation after, generally, 2 to 3 three years of catechetical classes (at least for youth). So its firmly grounded in the teaching of the faith.

Jon

[/quote]

My apologies, that is true for Lutherans, but not for Methodists, Presbyterians, and the United Church of Christ/congegationals.


#18

There are already dioceses in the US (Fargo is one) and in Canada (Regina, Prince George & Saskatoon) where the order of the sacraments of initiation have been returned to their original order.


#19

[quote="JonNC, post:15, topic:298591"]
Ironically, some Lutheran synods have gone the current Catholic direction of first Holy communion prior to Confirmation.

I think you underestimate a bit the importance attached to Confirmation in Lutheranism. It is quite a bit more than simply an admission to Holy Communion. Lutherans practice Confirmation after, generally, 2 to 3 three years of catechetical classes (at least for youth). So its firmly grounded in the teaching of the faith.

Jon

[/quote]

Our pastor is from the old school, he will not commune anyone who was not confirmed. Before the confirmans are confirmed, they meet individually with the pastor and the board of elders and are orally quizzed on Church Doctrine.


#20

[quote="hn160, post:19, topic:298591"]
Our pastor is from the old school, he will not commune anyone who was not confirmed. Before the confirmans are confirmed, they meet individually with the pastor and the board of elders and are orally quizzed on Church Doctrine.

[/quote]

That's the practice in my parish, as well - "the questioning", as we call it. When we were ELCA, my daughter had the opportunity, after some classes, to receive first Holy Communion at about age 9 as I recall. She went through the class, but chose not to, and received her first Holy Communion at Confimation in our current LCMS parish.

Jon


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