Do old covenants removed when new ones come?


#1

Hi there,

In the Old Testament God makes several covenants with people or groups.
Do old covenants get removed when new ones are made, e.g. When God made a covenant with Noah did His covenant to Adam cease? Or when God instituted the Abrahamic covenants did Noahs covenants cease?

Thank you,
Chris


#2

In short, no. God keeps His promises.


#3

:thumbsup: If I recall correctly each covenant widened and built on the previous (couple, family, tribe, nation and finally all humanity) but God did not remove or undo what he promised.


#4

My position is that the Old Covenant was transformed into the New Covenant. So the Old continues in its New higher form. In this way, we can truly say that God has kept His covenant with the Jews, though they do not realizes that He has upgraded that Covenant to something even greater.

The New Covenant cannot merely replace the Old, because then the promises of God in the Old would be abrogated. And the two Covenants cannot continue side by side, since there is only one Savior, who makes the one Covenant between God and man by His sacrifice on the cross.


#5

Covenants are only in effect when the parties are alive. When one party to a covenant dies then the covenant ceases to exist. God died on the cross and so the old covenant is ended.

The Book of Revelation mirrors the proceedings of a covenant lawsuit whereby one party of a covenant is judged to have not upheld their obligations. There are several covenant lawsuits in the Old Testament and the visions in Revelation mirror the lawsuit in the book of the prophet Ezekiel closely.

See agapebiblestudy.com/documents/the%20covenant%20treaty%20format%20in%20sacred%20scripture.htm. Scroll down a little for an explanation.

-Tim-


#6

Salvation history unfolded through a series of covenants that God made with his people. Adam and Eve were created in a close relationship with God that was shattered at the Fall. This relationship with God would later be imaged by families and bonds of kinship created through covenantal promises. God moved to restore humanity to relationships with himself by means of a series of covenants.

God made a series of Promises to Abraham that were fulfilled through future covenants.

  1. Land Promise (Gen 15) -> Fulfilled in Moses (Mosaic Covenant - Ex 24, Deutronomic covenant (with Moses) - Deuteronomy 29.

  2. Kingdom Promise (Gen 17) -> Fulfilled in David (Davidic Covenant - 2 Sam 7

  3. Promise of Worldwide Bessing (Gen 22) -> Fulfilled in Jesus (New Covenant in Jesus Christ - Mark 14)

The following illustrates the progressive growth of God’s family from “One Holy Couple” to “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”, illustrated by means of these same covenants.

Covenantal Sign and Mediator ___________________Family Form

Adam (Sabbath) (Gen 1-3) -----------------------------------One Holy Couple
Noah (Rainbow) (Gen 9) ---------------------------------------One Holy Family
Abraham (Circumcision) (Gen 15,17,22) ------------------One Holy Tribe
Moses (10 Commandments/tablets) (Ex 24/Deut)-------One Holy Nation
David (Kingdom) (2 Sam 7)------------------------------------One Holy Kingdom
Jesus (Eucharist) (Mark 14)-----------------------------------One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church


#7

=mercuriel;13495750]Hi there,

In the Old Testament God makes several covenants with people or groups.
Do old covenants get removed when new ones are made, e.g. When God made a covenant with Noah did His covenant to Adam cease? Or when God instituted the Abrahamic covenants did Noahs covenants cease?

Thank you,
Chris

Are they “removed”?

No

But they are onverriden:thumbsup:

God Bless you and thanks for asking


#8

Hi Tim, just to clarify something…

So when Moses died did the Mosaic covenant end? If so, why did the Hebrews continue obeying the 613 laws after Moses if the covenant had ended? Or did God make the Mosaic covenant to Moses AND his tribe too?


#9

The covenant was not made with Moses and so Moses’ death had no impact on the covenant. The covenant was made with the Hebrew people.

The Hebrew people did not “continue” to obey the 613 commandments. They didn’t even begin to obey the commandments but broke the first commandment right there at Mt. Sinai when they worshiped the golden calf. They did this only a few days after ratifying the covenant!

-Tim-


#10

Any covenant is the same Covenant that YHWH makes throughout the age.

Take circumcision for instance. Catholics dissolve this requirement. However, it is still a sign of the Covenant, therefore, it is lawful to be circumcised. Nothing of the Covenant God makes with us passes away. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same. The Covenant is this–that God promises us that he will deliver our salvation through His glory. The Old testament Prophets prophesied of Jesus’ coming, Jesus comes in the New Testament. Nothing of the Prophets is absolved; as is Jesus’ words, I came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.


#11

It depends on the covenant. The one with Noah and Abraham did not cease–the one with Abraham, the covenant of faith, was fulfilled in Christ–therefore, we participate in that covenant through faith, which includes faith in Christ.

The Mosaic covenant was not permanent, but was merely transitory, intervening, and provisional. Here’s a good article on this in the context of Pope Benedict’s writings as a theologian:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7878

That’s why an American Catechism which said the Mosaic covenant was still in effect and was saving had to be amended.


#12

Transitory, intervening, and provisional in the way that it gave man the Spirit of Justice. Like a baby step. I tell you that the Mosaic covenant is permanent, in that the spirit of justice was borne by such law. The spirit of justice has not gone away through man. It stepped further with Christ, in that he fulfilled its message by adhering to Mosaic law. He didn’t destroy it, he brought the spirit of justice into full blossom. You cannot forget the Old by accepting the New Man. The New Man, our Lord, comes from the spirit of justice handed through the Mosaic law.


#13

The old covenant and the new covenant are not the same.

To start off with, the old is sealed with the blood of animals and the new is sealed with the Blood of God in the person of Jesus. That’s just the beginning of the differences.

The entire book of Hebrews is about the difference between the old and new covenants.

-Tim-


#14

The answer to the question is found in this new Vatican document:
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

Excerpts follow:

The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. “God is not man, that he should lie” (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated (cf. Rom 9:4; 11:1-2). The New Covenant does not revoke the earlier covenants, but it brings them to fulfilment.

For Christians, the New Covenant in Christ is the culminating point of the promises of salvation of the Old Covenant, and is to that extent never independent of it. The New Covenant is grounded in and based on the Old, because it is ultimately the God of Israel who concludes the Old Covenant with his people Israel and enables the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus lives during the period of the Old Covenant, but in his work of salvation in the New Covenant confirms and perfects the dimensions of the Old. The term covenant, therefore, means a relationship with God that takes effect in different ways for Jews and Christians. The New Covenant can never replace the Old but presupposes it and gives it a new dimension of meaning, by reinforcing the personal nature of God as revealed in the Old Covenant and establishing it as openness for all who respond faithfully from all the nations (cf. Zech 8:20-23; Psalm 87).

That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity.

The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

the covenant that God concluded with Israel has never been revoked but remains valid on the basis of God’s unfailing faithfulness to his people, and consequently the New Covenant which Christians believe in can only be understood as the affirmation and fulfilment of the Old. Christians are therefore also convinced that through the New Covenant the Abrahamic covenant has obtained that universality for all peoples which was originally intended in the call of Abram (cf. Gen 12:1-3).


#15

I think in my answer above, which was taken from one of Jeff Cavins bible studies [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]gives the[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB] insight of what a covenant is for, to create kinship. Also, this question has interested me enough to get me to start reading Scott Hahn’s book ‘Kinship by Covenant’, which is this same idea. Kinship through covenant. Since after the fall of man it was through these covenants between God and man that would help to recreate this kinship that was lost through the fall.

Having this idea of what a covenant is for, creating kinship, family bond through blood oaths, rather than just for creating a bunch of laws that were mandated to God’s people, we can see that some aspects of a covenant may be replaced with or superseded with a newer better covenant. For instance, circumcision as an outward sign of an older covenant is superseded by baptism as a sign and fulfillment in the new covenant.

The old covenants did not have the power to change a man inwardly like the new covenant. God said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh. And that he would sprinkle clean water and give us a new spirit and a new heart under the new covenant. It was when Jesus was glorified that he could release the worldwide blessing of the Spirit upon all flesh. This was part of the promise to Abraham and through the prophets. The Holy Spirit now gives us the power to be transformed inwardly. So we don’t get lost in the different rules of the covenant since the Spirit is a more sure way. They had the comandments under the old covenant, but like Jesus said he doesn’t just not want us to not kill, he also doesn’t want us to get angry. Because the best the old covenant can do is bring about outward observance of laws, but they could not change the.heart. It is the law that brings death, but the Spirit brings life. Since the Spirit brings transformation.


#16

I think if what you mean by “replace” is “are the Jews still under the old covenant?” as if there is one sort of salvation for this group and another for that one then yes the New has replaced the Old. But if you mean “have the promises and moral laws of the Old Covenant passed away because of the New?” then no it has not replaced it.

There is, I think, confusion about this because of dispensationalism and it’s questionable (heterodox) teaching that God did one thing at one time and another thing at another time. St Augustine spoke about this terms of God unfolding His purpose in time and that revelation is progressive but he did not mean as the Scofield Bible bunch do that God intends one method of salvation for this group and a different method for another. So we have to be careful when considering this question that we remember always that all the covenants and Old Testament prophets looked forward to Christ who fulfilled them.

So I would say yes the New has replaced the Old but only in the sense that God has given His full revelation now and so we may look to the old for wisdom and morality and history but never for salvation.


#17

=Ron Conte;13499012]The answer to the question is found in this new Vatican document:
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

Excerpts follow:

The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. “God is not man, that he should lie” (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated (cf. Rom 9:4; 11:1-2). The New Covenant does not revoke the earlier covenants, but it brings them to fulfilment.

For Christians, the New Covenant in Christ is the culminating point of the promises of salvation of the Old Covenant, and is to that extent never independent of it. The New Covenant is grounded in and based on the Old, because it is ultimately the God of Israel who concludes the Old Covenant with his people Israel and enables the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus lives during the period of the Old Covenant, but in his work of salvation in the New Covenant confirms and perfects the dimensions of the Old. The term covenant, therefore, means a relationship with God that takes effect in different ways for Jews and Christians. The New Covenant can never replace the Old but presupposes it and gives it a new dimension of meaning, by reinforcing the personal nature of God as revealed in the Old Covenant and establishing it as openness for all who respond faithfully from all the nations (cf. Zech 8:20-23; Psalm 87).

That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity.

The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

the covenant that God concluded with Israel has never been revoked but remains valid on the basis of God’s unfailing faithfulness to his people, and consequently the New Covenant which Christians believe in can only be understood as the affirmation and fulfilment of the Old. Christians are therefore also convinced that through the New Covenant the Abrahamic covenant has obtained that universality for all peoples which was originally intended in the call of Abram (cf. Gen 12:1-3).

THANKS:thumbsup:

Very well done!


#18

The Old and New are in fact the same. God didn’t drop the Old with New. The New fulfilled the Old. Its fulfillment does not mean its passing away.

Are you telling me that God’s covenant with Abraham is now void. So I mean, that makes you not a descendant of Abraham.

Besides, the Old was sealed by the blood of the covenant, which transcends any animal sacrifice because the blood was Jesus’ blood, the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world; just like the Old Covenant sacrifice expiated sin’s removal from the people, the blood of the lamb, Christ’s sacrifice, removes sin from the people. You still have blood sacrifice involved between the New and the Old. Nothing of the Old has passed away. It’s just the Old has been transformed into the Righteousness of the New.


#19

I have come to the conclusion that most people on CAF are guessing at things or just making things up and that this website is an extremely poor place to learn about the Catholic faith.

-Tim-


#20

What makes you say that? I find the opposite is true.


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