Do tongues ever = Glosolalia?


#1

I am looking into a Catholic charismatic order, and have been attending the affilated Parish off and on for over a year. Often during the Mass, people will "sing in the Spirit/(tongues), especially after the Gloria. These Catholics are completely faithful to Magisterial teaching, and do not dissent on any part of the Deposit of Faith. That being said, as a former Pentecostal, I am a little uncomfortable with this manifestation as there was much abuse of it in the church I attended. It would be good to hear from both sides on this one, charismatic and non-charismatic Catholics. God Bless.


#2

If you’re uncomfortable about it, find another parish. I think it’s a little wierd and fanatical myself.


#3

I was just looking at Scripture, and one of the verses I’ve heard to justify it is 1 Corinthians 14:5- “Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (RSV) quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5230210


#4

I think I’ll discern this a little more before I make a final decision. I think the charismatic movement has some very strong points, such as their zeal for Evangelization, however, I have often wanted to have a good intellectual dialogue concerning this charism of the Holy Spirit and I know there are many faithful Catholics on CAF who could shed some good light on this relevant issue in the Church today - particularly on the glosolalia phenomenon


#5

I should leave this up to someone else who knows more than I on this subject. But in the context, “speaking in tongues” seems to be a good thing per se, but preaching the truth and aiding others in faith and holiness is better.


#6

Here’s an interesting quote from Theresa of Avila to ponder:

In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. What I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way, for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations of the soul would organize, if it could, that all might know its joy! . . . The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to the praises of God.

Oh, what blessed madness, Sisters! If only God would give it to us all. And what a favor He has granted you by bringing you to this house where, when the Lord gives you this favor and you tell others about it, you will receive help rather than the criticism you would receive in the world.
Sometimes it is a particular joy for me to see these Sisters gathered together and feeling such great joy at being in the monastery that they praise our Lord as much as possible. It is seen very clearly that their praises rise from the interior of the soul. I would want you to praise Him often, Sisters; for the one who begins, awakens the others. In what better way can you, when together, use your tongues than in the praises of God since we have so many reasons for praising Him?
May it please His Majesty to give us this prayer often since it is so safe and beneficial; to acquire it is impossible because it is something very supernatural. And it may last a whole day. The soul goes about like a person who has drunk a great deal but not so much as to be drawn out of his senses.

It’s not explicitly clear that she’s speaking of tongues here but it definately seems like it especially as she calls it “gibberish”. Anyhow, it does not emphatically prove it but it’s something interesting to ponder:)


#7

My former parish, that I was baptized in… well Fr. Walker had a way about him- him and his “charasmatic” following at the parish…

At the end of the Gospel they would all yell jibberish and raise their right hands, like in the salute given to Adolf Hitler…the same after the consecration of the bread and wine- each time.

This email came to me from the ctngreg email discussion list and thought it a good idea to include it with my comments above…

The late Fr. John Hardon, S.J. studied the charismatic or Catholic
Pentacostal movement in depth and told us that it was clearly an
outgrowth of Protestant Pentacostalism and in no way authentically
Catholic. He told us in class that Mother Teresa forbade her sisters
to become involved in the charismatic movement. “Wherever you find the
charismatics you find division.” he quoted her as saying. I later
confirmed this rather surprising revelation personally with Father
Hardon. Father asked that no literature promoting charismatic “prayer
groups”, etc. be distributed in his classes. He pointedly warned us
never to allow anyone to “lay hands” on us or to attempt an amateur
exorcism on us saying that he had seen "profound personality changes"
in some who had undergone such rituals. Although Father didn’t say so,
I always presumed that what he was warning against was opening ones
self up to demonic influence. Google "Father John Hardon charismatics"
and you will come upon some relevant material. I’d also recommend
Msgr. Ronald Knox’s classic book “Enthusiasm” which is a history of
what one might call the charismatic tendency which has shadowed the
Church right from her beginnings to the modern age. Of course it goes
without saying that the Novus Ordo makes the liturgy and the faithful
virtually defenseless against such tendencies while the traditional
mass is a powerful barrier of defense against them. I note with some
satisfaction that the so-called charismatic movement apparantly
reached its high water mark some years ago and, at least here in the
midwestern United States, is now but a shadow of its former self.

Ken


#8

The gift of Speaking in Tongues is speaking a foreign language unknown to the person, prior to them speaking it.

RSV
Acts 2
5: Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6: And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
7: And they were amazed and wondered, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8: And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9: Par’thians and Medes and E’lamites and residents of Mesopota’mia, Judea and Cappado’cia, Pontus and Asia,
10: Phryg’ia and Pamphyl’ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre’ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”

Speaking in tongues was meant so that the church could be built up, to be a universal church in every nation. It was not babbling like pentecostals babble, for they speak into the air.

1 Corinthians 14
9: So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
10: There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning;
11: but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
12: So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.


#9

I have given the “charismatic” movement a chance, but the whole “speaking in tongues” during mass did make me raise an eyebrow.

And we’re talking just about everyone there. Speaking in a flurry of mass linguistic confusion, as far as I could tell.

Might have just been a group of people very open to the Holy Spirit. However, when I have attend mass elsewhere and never seen anything of the sort, I have to wonder whether it is the power of God or the power of suggestion that’s making that parish’s mass a multilingual one…

(Not to try to offend anyone, or anything, of course, just observing)

I also have to wonder as to the liturgical significance and acceptability of blurting out things during mass, especially when the blurter seems to have no idea what he is blurting. :shrug: :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

1 Corinthians 14 gives some pretty clear instructions on what not do and what to do during Mass. It’s my understanding that the church in Corinthian was doing what a lot of Pentecostals do today. Everyone was speaking in tongues. St. Paul clearly gets onto them for that.

23 **So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if everyone is prophesying, and an unbeliever or uninstructed person should come in, he will be convinced by everyone and judged by everyone,
25 and the secrets of his heart will be disclosed, and so he will fall down and worship God, declaring, "God is really in your midst."
26 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
27
If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church **and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern.
30 But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
32 Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control,
33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the holy ones


#11

I am a rather charismatic Catholic, but I don’t have the gift of tongues (for now anyways ;)). Now, are they singing in the Spirit in English? (or French?) because we often do that in private praise and worship sessions, and some ppl call it speaking in tongues. But anyways, I agree with a PP that it’s not really an appropriate thing to do during Mass (especially after the Gloria or the consecration…a case might be made for after a hymn, but as far as i can tell, the gift can be suppressed until a more appropriate time…)
To echo another PP, if you’re uncomfortable, then discern very carefully, and follow God’s will.
Is the order you’re contemplating, by any chance, the Companions?


#12

24 But if everyone is prophesying, and an unbeliever or uninstructed person should come in, he will be convinced by everyone and judged by everyone,
25 and the secrets of his heart will be disclosed, and so he will fall down and worship God, declaring, "God is really in your midst."
26 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
27** If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church **and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern.
30 But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
32 Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control,
33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the churches of the holy onesSabda has hit it right on the head here.

As an ex-deacon in an Assembly of God church I have to say that though I have prayed in tongues, prophesied in tongues and interpreted tongues, as well as discerning within me when it was not of the Holy Spirit I have no real interest in the Charismatic Catholic movement, for several reasons.

Mainly it is because of the kind of scriptural and liturgical abuses that I have witnessed in my days in the AoG and the ones some of you have mentioned on this thread. One time I nearly had to turn around during Mass and tell a guy to be quiet during the consecration. :mad:

My biggest gripe is that the vast majority of Pentecostals/charismatics I have encountered try to act like the passage Sabda has cited doesn’t exist and speak out without interpretation. None of that is scriptural and none of it is obedient either to the Word of God or to the Church. That is plainly wrong.

If I was in a Mass where that was allowed to happen, I would stand up and walk out and dare anyone to say a word to me about it.

Tongues is grossly overrated my friends. Certainly it can and does exist, but only in certain contexts and always in obedience. If the people cannot be obedient to the Word of God, then what does that tell you as to its source?

I agree with St. Paul when he said "But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. " (1st Corinthians 14:19).

The other thing that is a problem with this is their theology. I have talked to charismatic Catholics who say precisely the same things that Evangelicals do as to “accepting Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior”, which is nowhere found in scripture or in the historic teachings of the Church and is in fact an error that comes directly from non-Catholic preaching. And it’s wrong…

I no longer speak in tongues at all, though I enjoy praying in Latin sometimes. I no longer see any need for that in my life and in fact I feel a strong leading of the Holy Spirit away from that.

Are there some good and holy folks among the Charismatics? Yes, I know several. Do I go to their meetings and in any way give even the impression that I agree with charimatic/pentecostalism? Not a chance.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.


#13

Has there been any official document from appropriate Church authorities regarding “prayer in tongues” or laying hands? I’ve always understood the gift of tongues as using real languages without previous preparation and regarded the foreign-language-like (but non-existent language) prayer as some sort of meditational practice, but I’ve recently heard a Charismatic group leader refer to it as the gift of tongues in some form. The rest of the context was talking to God and the act of prayer being more important than the words. There was something about words failing sometimes and some baby speak being directed towards God. For some reason, I feel extremely uneasy hearing any of that and I just can’t get myself to do it, no matter what. I’ve asked an animator of the group, he told me to talk to Jesus about it.


#14

Like I hinted at before: I would suggest that babbling apparent nonsense is, as St. Paul suggests, not the most useful of things. If it is truly from the Holy Spirit, then wonderful; if it is not, then perhaps we should question the source of it :eek:.

Either way, I think speaking aloud in any manner is inappropriate during many parts of mass. Especially when the speaker is unaware of what he is saying and has control over his own actions (which is typically the case).

A lot of what charismatics do is perfectly fine by me - just LEAVE IT OUT of the Mass! The Mass is a universal and timeless thing, not a social gathering where we can insert whatever practices we see fit.

Back to tongues, though; I have heard a theology teacher speak of going to a semi-charismatic-like mass in which (I think it was after Communion, when a song is often sung anyway) he witnessed something he describes as utterly beautiful. He is not at all particularly involved with the charismatic movement, though.

I think he said one person started singing out loud in a language he himself (my teacher) didn’t know, but could clearly discern was a legitimate language. Others began to follow and join in, some in apparently ancient languages and others in somewhat familiar languages. Before he knew it, many people were standing up and loudly praising God in many languages, as if a multilingual vocal orchestra had suddenly appeared. Everyone was singing something unique, but every part was woven together in a completely unrehearsed setting into a tapestry of music.

While I didn’t personally experience this, I feel this is a time when this sort of thing might be acceptable - when it’s not impeding the celebration of the Mass.


#15

Hello…yes it is the Companions and I noticed you are also from Ottawa! Wouldn’t it be insane if I knew you?!

I’ve been to St. Clement’s (ever been there?) and must say I was drawn by the beautiful silence, so rare in the more modern parishes. I have given a passing thought to looking into the FSSP, although I don’t know if I personally like the Mass in another language other than my own - Latin is beautiful however. I have given it much more thought since this thread especially, and I honestly don’t think I’m a charismatic. I let my emotions stir up and raise my hands, and have even sung in the Spirit before…yet I often wonder if this is authentic or simply sensationalism (not to judge that others haven’t had an authentic experience). Peace!


#16

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