Do we need a savior?


#1

ok so here is the hypothesis. suppose that man had never sinned. then would we ever have needed a savior? if the answer i sno, then would there ever have been a need for God to become man? if th eanswer i sno then does this mean that since God did become man and had it planned from before creation, then does that mean that it was predestined for man to sin, since not only God knew but so did lucifer (according to tim staples on his “all generations shall called me blessed” series, lucifer saw the plan of god and did not agree so he fell from heaven…this would imply that he saw god becoming man and we suppose that god wouldn’t become man unless man first sinned and thus needed it)? if my question makes sense to anyone, please answer it cuz this one’s been bugging me.


#2

[quote=creedseebas]ok so here is the hypothesis. suppose that man had never sinned. then would we ever have needed a savior? if the answer i sno, then would there ever have been a need for God to become man? if th eanswer i sno then does this mean that since God did become man and had it planned from before creation, then does that mean that it was predestined for man to sin, since not only God knew but so did lucifer (according to tim staples on his “all generations shall called me blessed” series, lucifer saw the plan of god and did not agree so he fell from heaven…this would imply that he saw god becoming man and we suppose that god wouldn’t become man unless man first sinned and thus needed it)? if my question makes sense to anyone, please answer it cuz this one’s been bugging me.
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If man did not fall then there would have been no need for God to become man. The purpose of the incarnation was to save mankind from sin and death. We would not need a savior because there would be nothing that we would need saving from since we had not fallen to sin and caused our own death.

Tim Staples is wrong. Satan did not know Gods plan, only God knew it, just like only God knows when the end will come.

Second, God knew that man would fall because it was going to happen, man did not fall because God knew it was going to happen. If man was not going to fall, then God would have known it was not going to happen. God did not predestine the fall.

The incarnation was planned because of the knowledge of what was going to happen. It was not planned because it was predestined to happen.


#3

[quote=jimmy]Tim Staples is wrong. Satan did not know Gods plan, only God knew it, just like only God knows when the end will come.===================================================================. If satan knew Gods plan he would have never tempted Adam,Eve and Jesus. :eek: God Bless
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#4

Exactly, it would only be a bad decision for him to tempt Adam and Eve if he knew the plan.
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#5

apparently you guys don’t know that by being a cherub, lucifer knew ALL of God’s thougths as soon as he thought them. Look at what St. Thomas says about angels and you’ll see this. Now about the predestination. Believe me i do not believe in predestination as you misunderstood me to believe. there is a predestination in Catholic theology but it takes too long to go into. i’ll say this…it was in a way predestined for man to fall since even before creation God knew he would become man. Lucifer fell because he saw that God would become man and thus he would have to be subject to man(because God pulls man up into his divinity), and we know that the purpose of angels is to serve. Welll lucifer could easily accept being subject to God, but never to man. this i swhy he fell. he was not in agreement with God’s plan. Having said that, i ask my question again: Do you guys believe that it was predestined? do you believe that it was part of God’s plan for man to sin? because if it wasn’t, then how in th eworld was Man ever supposed to join God in a marital covenant as we do in the cross…since there never would have been a need for a cross?


#6

apparently you guys don’t know that by being a cherub, lucifer knew ALL of God’s thougths as soon as he thought them.

that would make cherubs omniscient. which they are not.


#7

Do you guys believe that it was predestined? do you believe that it was part of God’s plan for man to sin? because if it wasn’t, then how in th eworld was Man ever supposed to join God in a marital covenant as we do in the cross…since there never would have been a need for a cross?

no, it wasn’t predestined. did God KNOW that we would sin? sure. He knows everyting. did God CAUSE us to sin? no, He won’t.

you ask how then we could have a ‘marital relationship’ with Him. there is no way we can ever know what WOULD have happened.

bless me, what DO they teach them in these schools these days…?


#8

[quote=creedseebas]apparently you guys don’t know that by being a cherub, lucifer knew ALL of God’s thougths as soon as he thought them. Look at what St. Thomas says about angels and you’ll see this. Now about the predestination. Believe me i do not believe in predestination as you misunderstood me to believe. there is a predestination in Catholic theology but it takes too long to go into. i’ll say this…it was in a way predestined for man to fall since even before creation God knew he would become man. Lucifer fell because he saw that God would become man and thus he would have to be subject to man(because God pulls man up into his divinity), and we know that the purpose of angels is to serve. Welll lucifer could easily accept being subject to God, but never to man. this i swhy he fell. he was not in agreement with God’s plan. Having said that, i ask my question again: Do you guys believe that it was predestined? do you believe that it was part of God’s plan for man to sin? because if it wasn’t, then how in th eworld was Man ever supposed to join God in a marital covenant as we do in the cross…since there never would have been a need for a cross?
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No, that is false. The Cherubs do not know all of God’s thoughts. If that were true then they would also know the time of the end, Jesus specifically said only the Father knows.

You are contradicting yourself, at first you say we were only predestined in that God knew, but then you ask if it is God’s plan that we fall through sin.

It was not part of God’s plan that we sin, but it was predestined in that he knew what would happen.


#9

It is like saying “there is no god named Mars, therefore there is no god.” It is attacking something that is not based on Christianity, but is trying to disprove Christianity.


#10

I also disagree with your understands of the knowledge of angels, but I think I understand what you are asking. Here is my take on it. Predestination is a logical impossibility. God exists outside of time, so there is nothing for him to predetermine. What looks to us like the past, present, and future, are all simultaneously present in one grand vision to God. So prefixes like *pre *and *post *are meaningless when talking about God’s knowledge. Therefore he cannot predestine anything because there is no moment before which he can act.

I don’t know if that makes sense. Basically I am trying to say God is outside of time, so there is no pre-anything.


#11

apparently you guys don’t know that by being a cherub, lucifer knew ALL of God’s thougths as soon as he thought them. Look at what St. Thomas says about angels and you’ll see this.

I have studied St. Thomas Aquinas’ teachings. Where does St. Thomas teach such a thing, as I cannot find it. Your thesis seems to be contradicted by his Summa Theologica, "the higher angels have a more universal knowledge than the lower." (ST, i, 55, 3). And, “Whatever is the exclusive sign of the Divinity, does not belong to the angels. But to know future events is the exclusive sign of the Divinity, according to Is. 41:23: “Show the things that are to come hereafter, and we shall know that ye are gods.” Therefore the angels do not know future events.” (ST, i, 57, 3)

[left]According to the text of my post-graduate theology studies,[/left]

"In this section we will rely chiefly on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas…

***… at the moment angels are brought into existence by God, they are given their knowledge of things. This is a creaturely knowledge so it is not comprehensive. God alone possesses comprehensive knowledge. … They are able to know because God gives them that extent of knowledge that He chooses to give. Not all angels share the same amount of knowledge … There are higher and lower angels and each receives what is fitting and necessary for its status and the service it is expected to render.***" (Fr. Chris Buckner, "God, Man, and the Universe’, ).

Perhaps you can support your claim by citing the text of St. Thomas Aquinas?


#12

The question is an old one…Would the Son of God have become incarnate if humanity had not sinned?

St. Thomas Aquinas said no. I tend to agree more with Blessed John Duns Scotus (d. 1308), who said yes.

I think the Incarnation of Christ was Plan A, not merely Plan B. In other words, I think the Incarnation would have happened whether man had sinned or not. If all creation was made through and for Christ (Colossians 1:16), then Jesus Christ is the summit of creation and was always intended—independent from the question of redemption. See more here: Light Over Darkness: The Meaning of Christmas by Fr. Ken Overberg

God certainly did know that man would sin, and he allowed it. Love involves risk and freedom. Love is worth the risk of sin. So man’s sin was a part of the permissive will or “will of decree”, but not a part of His “will of desire.”

The thesis that Lucifer knew all that God knew is incorrect, in my view.


#13

Lucifer fell because he saw that God would become man and thus he would have to be subject to man(because God pulls man up into his divinity), and we know that the purpose of angels is to serve.

I don’t agree with this thesis either. From my theology studies, “We are not certain what exactly was the act of disobedience which caused Lucifer to rebel against God. We are certain it was a sin of pride.” (Fr. Chris Buckner, “God, Man, and the Universe”).

I don’t think that Lucifer saw that God would become man. Unless God gave him a vision of the future, he could not know the future, according to St. Thomas Aquinas. Instead, I believe Lucifer refused to submit to his Superior when submission was due (pride), the details of which are unknown to us. It seems he desired independence from God and equality with God. Lucifer did not need to know the future to commit this sin. Lucifer was prideful and envious of God. When man was created in the image and likeness of God, Lucifer’s envy only increased.


#14

[quote=creedseebas]ok so here is the hypothesis. suppose that man had never sinned. then would we ever have needed a savior? if the answer i sno, then would there ever have been a need for God to become man? if th eanswer i sno then does this mean that since God did become man and had it planned from before creation, then does that mean that it was predestined for man to sin, since not only God knew but so did lucifer (according to tim staples on his “all generations shall called me blessed” series, lucifer saw the plan of god and did not agree so he fell from heaven…this would imply that he saw god becoming man and we suppose that god wouldn’t become man unless man first sinned and thus needed it)? if my question makes sense to anyone, please answer it cuz this one’s been bugging me.
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I believe the Jewish viewpoint would be that there is no need for a savior. The implication in Christian thought is that man is inherently evil and full of sin that needs another person to absolve that sin. The Jewish viewpoint would be that forgiveness of one’s personal sins is absolvable by personal repentance and the other avenue as animal sacrifices in the temple (when it was built).

Of course, Judaism rejects original sin and the personification of Satan. There is a good “impulse” and bad “impulse” inherent in humans. People are masters of their impulses. And, there is no heavenly battle between forces of good and evil, because in reality all comes from the same source - G-d. He makes his sun to shine on the just and the unjust.

Peace…


#15

In nomine Iesu, I offer you all peace,

Let me say that we should avoid idle conjecture.

Of these things put them in mind, charging them before the Lord. Contend not in words: for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. - 2 Timothy 2:14 DRB

I don’t mean this in a harsh manner but only as a warning which Holy Scripture has seen fit to offer us. We see further in our blessed St. Paul’s Epistle to Timothy that we should:

Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness. And their speech spreadeth like a canker: of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus: Who have erred from the truth, saying that the resurrection is past already, and have subverted the faith of some. But the sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal: the Lord knoweth who are his; and let every one depart from iniquity who nameth the name of the Lord. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth: and some indeed unto honour, but some unto dishonour. If any man therefore shall cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and profitable to the Lord, prepared unto every good work. But flee thou youthful desires, and pursue justice, faith, charity and peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild toward all men, apt to teach, patient, With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth; And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil by whom they are held captive at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:15-26 DRB

I hope one minds my humble offering of Holy Scripture for reflection on this topic but for some reason I feel this is a vain and misguided use of our gifts.

My apologies if I have offended. Amen.

Peace, Love and Blessings.


#16

i find it rather humorous that everyone seems to think that the question reflects my stand on this subject, when really i am just posing a hypothetical question. my personal opinion is that there never would have been a “plan b” because God already knew what would happen, not that he predestined anything. He simply knew because everything to Him is present and He is omniscient. Someone made a rather rude comment: “what DO they teach kids in schools these days”. Well mam or sir, they teach me very well where i go to school thank you very much. Now back to the other issue, the reason why i ask this question and try to defend it is because i think we need to practice answering these types of objections…basically i’m playing devil’s advocate. so unless someone has some other problem with this, i believe we can go on.


#17

WAIT!!!

I thought Lucifer was an Archangel when he was created.


#18

From the lyrics of a song:

I keep trying to find a light,
on my own, apart from you.
I am the king of excuses,
I’ve got one for every selfish thing I do.

What’s going on inside of me?
I despise my own behaviour.
This only serves to confirm my suspicion
That I’m still a man in need of a saviour.

(Charlie Peacock - also on a DCTalk album)

Yes, I need a saviour. That is reality.

The trouble with the hypothetical question that began this thread is that it is a hypothetical question with no basis in reality.


closed #19

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