Do you believe non-catholics are saved?


#21

[quote=rtkiii66]The catholic church teaches from a cannon not the full Gospel.

The Rock Christ is speaking of is Himself.

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
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We are not the ones that took seven books out of the Bible;)


#22

[quote=gladtobe]The Catholic church INDIRECTLY teaches that no one can be saved outside the RCC. By this they mean that one must receive the sacraments to receive salvation. Although, due to the late Pope John Paul’s ecumenical efforts, he kind of said people of other faiths were accepted of God as well. So this is a catch 22 question right now.
[/quote]

Hello gladtobe,

We are hashing out Pope John Paul II wensday after noon statement to Vatican pilgrims compared to Pope Eugene IV’s excathadra Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, at Catholic Forum. Care to stop over and place a post or two on the issue. catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1099&page=1&pp=25

The following is a **quote of Pope John Paul II’s **statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “**it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour **(cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Pope Eugene IV,

(Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."


#23

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]We are not the ones that took seven books out of the Bible;)
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No your the ones who added the apochrapha. It is funny the old or new test never once makes reference to those books and yet they make reference to each other thousands of times. the problem started at the vulgate translation.


#24

The Rock Christ is speaking of is Himself.

What difference does it make if the rock is Jesus or Peter? That wasn’t the point you asked for scripture that Jesus started the Catholic Church.

The catholic church teaches from a cannon not the full Gospel.

Oh! Where do you get this from? It is not true.


#25

Pope Eugene IV,

(Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."__________________Steve this would implicate that God is unjust to people that have never had the opportunity to learn the Catholic faith:mad: Do you not think that Jesus can reveal the truth even at the last breath:banghead: Stop slamming the late Pope too, it is just not right.


#26

No your the ones who added the apochrapha. It is funny the old or new test never once makes reference to those books and yet they make reference to each other thousands of times. the problem started at the vulgate translation.

Isn’t revisionist history fun?


#27

[quote=rtkiii66]No your the ones who added the apochrapha. It is funny the old or new test never once makes reference to those books and yet they make reference to each other thousands of times. the problem started at the vulgate translation.
[/quote]

History lessons are needed:p :slight_smile:


#28

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us:hmmm: And Jesus said to Peter you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.:clapping: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: You may want to visit the Vatican sometime Saint Peter is buried under the main alter:)
[/quote]

Did you know peter means wavering rock.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


#29

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]History lessons are needed:p :slight_smile:
[/quote]

what does that mean? correct me in my error if you can?


#30

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,

Did you know peter means wavering rock.

It is not what Jesus said it meant. He didn’t say you are wavering rock.

I am surprised you don’t know or didn’t use the old tired Peter was the little rock.

You are not answering. You thow out unsubstantiated statements and are not backing them up. I think you need to study more before posting.


#31

[quote=Ann Cheryl]What difference does it make if the rock is Jesus or Peter? That wasn’t the point you asked for scripture that Jesus started the Catholic Church.

Oh! Where do you get this from? It is not true.
[/quote]

See here is the problem, the word Catholic means "the true church"
Jesus did not start catholism the roman leadership did. It is a huge difference what the rock is, because if it is peter(and it is not) we are doomed. You do not realize you are being taught from a cannon, a specific set of scripture repeated over and over again year after year.
Please read the book of martyrs it will help.


#32

[quote=rtkiii66]The Rock Christ is speaking of is Himself.
[/quote]

Then why did Jesus change Simon’s name to Peter/rock? IIRC, the original text even uses the same word for Peter’s name as it does for the “rock” later in the same sentence.


#33

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Pope Eugene IV,

(Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."__________________Steve this would implicate that God is unjust to people that have never had the opportunity to learn the Catholic faith:mad: Do you not think that Jesus can reveal the truth even at the last breath:banghead: Stop slamming the late Pope too, it is just not right.
[/quote]

This quote by Pope Eugene is in not contradictory to what the Church now teaches. The key phrase in this quotation is "unless before death they are joined with Her."

All who are saved have been joined with the Church. As we know, those who do not profess the Catholic faith through no fault of their own may be saved. These kind of people who are saved are united to the Church in an invisible way.

On the flip side, I’m sure there are many nominal Catholics who are not united to the Church.

Being united to the Church is not based on whether your name is on a parish registry.


#34

[quote=Genesis315]This quote by Pope Eugene is in not contradictory to what the Church now teaches. The key phrase in this quotation is "unless before death they are joined with Her."

All who are saved have been joined with the Church. As we know, those who do not profess the Catholic faith through no fault of their own may be saved. These kind of people who are saved are united to the Church in an invisible way.
[/quote]

Thanks Genesis for pointing that out I have been frayed today with insults of our late Pope and using other Pope and scriptures to do it.I should have read more carefully.:o


#35

greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline

This site willl give you a history of the bible not a Catholic view but they do admit that books were removed from the bible

Catholic means "the true church

I will repeat you need to do a whole lot more studying. Look the word up in a dictionary and no where will you see that it means the true church. It means universal.

You do not realize you are being taught from a cannon, a specific set of scripture repeated over and over again year after year.
Please read the book of martyrs it will help.

I know my Church quite well. Do you think I never pick up a bible. You are reading from a poorly informed book. You are speaking of the readings of mass which incidently covers the whole bible both old and new not just a specific set of scriptures. You are relying on someone else to tell you what is done. They are lying to you.


#36

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Thanks Genesis for pointing that out I have been frayed today with insults of our late Pope and using other Pope and scriptures to do it.I should have read more carefully.:o
[/quote]

Well, the poster tried to use it to contrast JPII so reading with his agenda in mind it was easy to miss. Many post-VII documents are concerned with explanation while many of the pre-VII documents deal with condemnation of error so sometimes given the style of each type of writing they can seem like they don’t go together. If you wade through all the flowery language and get to the root, you’ll see they are always in line with one another.


#37

[quote=Ann Cheryl]greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline

This site willl give you a history of the bible not a Catholic view but they do admit that books were removed from the bible

I will repeat you need to do a whole lot more studying. Look the word up in a dictionary and no where will you see that it means the true church. It means universal.

I know my Church quite well. Do you think I never pick up a bible. You are reading from a poorly informed book. You are speaking of the readings of mass which incidently covers the whole bible both old and new not just a specific set of scriptures. You are relying on someone else to tell you what is done. They are lying to you.
[/quote]

I was a catholic for 30 years I am very aware of the false doctrine ttaught in the universal church. I have spent thousands of hours in the bible(many translations) I do not say these things lightly. I know we both love the Lord, but to say anyone who is not in agreement with the papal chuch is not saved is crazy. The papal chuch will have its day and purpose and I do not want any part of it.


#38

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Pope Eugene IV,

(Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."__________________Steve this would implicate that God is unjust to people that have never had the opportunity to learn the Catholic faith:mad: Do you not think that Jesus can reveal the truth even at the last breath:banghead: Stop slamming the late Pope too, it is just not right.
[/quote]

Hello Lisa,

Actually I like the idea of Pope John Paul II changing this out dated “exchathadra” (unchangeable) Church teaching. Not to slam the late Pope Eugene IV of course. If Popes can bind, they can loost. What I do not like is people telling me that Pope John Paul II is not changing Pope Eugene IV’s “excathadra” (unchangeable), some say “infallible” Church doctrine. Even a simple mind can see that he has.

However, first I think that Pope John Paul II could have first taken out a few of the Church “Keys to the Kingdom”, calling upon Christ to “hold sins bound” automatic anathamas designed to damn heretic Catholic souls. Because he did not do this first, this new teaching of Pope John Paul II, allowing pagans and Protestants into the bosom of the Church, puts Catholics at a disadvantage of attaining eternal life. If it is true that Catholics have to abide by all anathema bound Catholic encyclicals or have anathema damn their souls, kick them out of the bosom of the Church, and Protestants and pagans do not, this is not fair. Is it fair to have Catholics bound by Church soul damning anathemas while the Church allows Protestants and pagans to bypass these anathamas and simply “sincerely believe” what their leaders tell them?

Pope John Paul II has created an unequal playing field between Protestants and Catholics with Protestants having the advantage. Maybe by not warning Catholics of sould damning Church anathemas, while leaving auto anathemas activated, Pope John Paul II is counting on ignorance to get Catholics past them. I do not know if ignorance gets you past an automatic anathema. Still it would be more fair to simply unbind auto anathamas from the many Catholic Church encyclicals they are bound to.

We are discussing this at catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11605#post11605


#39

[quote=Genesis315]This quote by Pope Eugene is in not contradictory to what the Church now teaches. The key phrase in this quotation is "unless before death they are joined with Her."

All who are saved have been joined with the Church. As we know, those who do not profess the Catholic faith through no fault of their own may be saved. These kind of people who are saved are united to the Church in an invisible way.

On the flip side, I’m sure there are many nominal Catholics who are not united to the Church.

Being united to the Church is not based on whether your name is on a parish registry.
[/quote]

Hello Genesis,

So what did the "No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved" guy not do, that pagans and Protestants do, to enter into the bosom of the Catholic Church “before death”?


#40

[quote=rtkiii66]I was a catholic for 30 years I am very aware of the false doctrine ttaught in the universal church. I have spent thousands of hours in the bible(many translations) I do not say these things lightly. I know we both love the Lord, but to say anyone who is not in agreement with the papal chuch is not saved is crazy. The papal chuch will have its day and purpose and I do not want any part of it.
[/quote]

I am glad you brought this back to the thread.

do you believe that a person that is not of the catholic religion can be saved??? especially if he does not want to participate in your denomination. but, rather chooses to follow the bible instead on his own accord…

I believe that those not in union with the Church that Jesus established which is the Catholic Church can be saved but it is more difficult for them to be since they reject the graces Jesus established to help them.
rtkiii66
You have very little knowledge of the Church. What were you doing those thirty years. How can you reject the Eucharist? You have made so many silly mistakes like the meaning of Catholic or that the Catholic Church added books to the bible, just plain ignorance. Did you look at the link I provided?


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