Do you believe non-catholics are saved?

#41

[quote=Ann Cheryl]I am glad you brought this back to the thread.

I believe that those not in union with the Church that Jesus established which is the Catholic Church can be saved but it is more difficult for them to be since they reject the graces Jesus established to help them.
rtkiii66
You have very little knowledge of the Church. What were you doing those thirty years. How can you reject the Eucharist? You have made so many silly mistakes like the meaning of Catholic or that the Catholic Church added books to the bible, just plain ignorance. Did you look at the link I provided?
[/quote]

WOW, who is rejecting the eucharist? I made no mistake on the meaning of catholic, and the catholic bible has books added. Anyone who honestly looks at history can see this. You are blinded by catholisism. The papal church has become a very scary place, and I pray that God revives it to be what Christ ment it to be.

0 Likes

#42

[quote=rtkiii66]Did you know peter means wavering rock.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[/quote]

Oh, good. You’ve found John Chapter 1. Keep reading.

Jn 1:40-42 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).

Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic, not Greek. “Cephas” is the Aramaic word. It means “huge, massive, immovable ROCK.” “Peter” is the Greek translation of Cephas.

Want more uses of Cephas as the name of “Simon the son of John”? See 1 Corinthians, Chapters 1, 3, 9 and 15, and Galatians Chapters 1 and 2.

Frankly, I’m happy with the way John defines "Peter’: Cephas. Great big hunking Rock.

0 Likes

#43

[quote=rtkiii66]WOW, who is rejecting the eucharist?

If you do not belong to the catholic church, what eucharist are you talking about?

I made no mistake on the meaning of catholic,

What do you mean by catholic? Clarify this for me please…

and the catholic bible has books added. Anyone who honestly looks at history can see this.

If you would really read your history with an open mind, it only makes common sense that the catholic church has existed for 2000 years. You would not have a bible if we did not translate it. And by the way, there is nothing in the bible that says you have to just rely on the bible. For many years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, there were no bibles. But in the bible it does say to hold on to traditions…

You are blinded by catholisism.

We contain the fullness of the truth…the church existed for about 1600 years before Luther and Henry the 8th broke away.

And which of the 35,000 denominations should I join? Which of these many, many cells who make up their own laws as they go along should I join? :smiley:

The papal church has become a very scary place, and I pray that God revives it to be what Christ ment it to be.

In its teaching and tradition, the church is doing exactly that…obeying the Lord. Yes, the people are sinful but we are a church of sinners…you are welcomed anytime to join us! :smiley:

It is more scary to have left the church, thinking oneself more wise than the church, to join another denomination. It is like giving up a banquet of exquisite food to go to MacDonald’s…

But thanks for the prayers…they are appreciated!

Blessings,
Shoshana

[/quote]


0 Likes

#44

[quote=rtkiii66]I was a catholic for 30 years I am very aware of the false doctrine ttaught in the universal church. I have spent thousands of hours in the bible(many translations) I do not say these things lightly. I know we both love the Lord, but to say anyone who is not in agreement with the papal chuch is not saved is crazy. The papal chuch will have its day and purpose and I do not want any part of it.
[/quote]

You speak of false doctrine. Perhaps you could start a thread on each of the different false doctrine, then we would understand more where you are coming from. Right now this discussion seems a little broad.

Also, what do you mean when you say that the papal church will have its day and purpose? What do you believe that purpose is? I ask because you say that you want no part of it. That just made me curious.

0 Likes

#45

[quote=ceasar]do you believe that a person that is not of the catholic religion can be saved??? especially if he does not want to participate in your denomination. but, rather chooses to follow the bible instead on his own accord…

Ceasar
[/quote]

If he willfully chooses, understanding Catholicism and knowing in his heart that it is the truth. He cannot. However God is the only judge of this. I contend that there can be two people who seem on an equal plain from our perspective. One however has known and rejected Catholic teaching or willfully failed to respond to the light given. Another may be in ignorance about the Catholic faith but on the same level, i.e. he may jeer out our doctrines in the same manner as the one who willfully rejected them or did not respond in understanding to the light given. They will be judged differently.

In general though God is not limited by his sacraments. Further the Bible gives us many “windows” in to the answer to this question. The Apostles want Jesus to cast fire down upon a man casting out demons in Jesus name. The man is not one of them. Yet Jesus said “those who are not against us are for us” and recommended leniency. The three wise men were not Jews or Christians, yet had some knowledge of God. God’s spirit led them. The Good Samaritan was held up as an exmaple of proper Christian spirit, even though the Samaritans were pagans who included the God of Israel in their many Gods. Cornelius was neither Jew nor Christian, yet was said to be a “God-fearing and righteous man” BEFORE Peter came to him. I don’t believe the God-fearing and righteous go to hell.

My 2 cents

0 Likes

#46

[quote=rtkiii66]I think you will find the book of martyrs eye opening.
[/quote]

Thought by secular scholars to be largely exagerated. I have a leaf from a copy printed during the reign of James I of England, framed and hanging on my wall. And Protestants did knock off quite a few Catholics, too. Don’t let’s go there.

0 Likes

#47

[quote=rtkiii66]No your the ones who added the apochrapha. It is funny the old or new test never once makes reference to those books and yet they make reference to each other thousands of times. the problem started at the vulgate translation.
[/quote]

And where on the face of this green earth did you get that notion?!? I was raised a Southern Baptist and I attended Baylor University, the “buckle on the Bible Belt.” In my OT/NT classes, that was never alleged, that the Catholic Church added the Apocrypha!

0 Likes

#48

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Thanks Genesis for pointing that out I have been frayed today with insults of our late Pope and using other Pope and scriptures to do it.I should have read more carefully.:o
[/quote]

Don’t worry, dear Lisa, the old Holy Father will be saint yet, maybe even a Doctor of the Church.

0 Likes

#49

[quote=ceasar]do you believe that a person that is not of the catholic religion can be saved??? especially if he does not want to participate in your denomination. but, rather chooses to follow the bible instead on his own accord…

Ceasar
[/quote]

Hi All
This is just my opinion but to follow the Bible and or Gods word is the only way to salvation. To follow man or a certain denomination that is lead by man will result in the horrable 2nd death that the Bible talks about, just my opinion.
Thanks

0 Likes

#50

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi All
This is just my opinion but to follow the Bible and or Gods word is the only way to salvation. To follow man or a certain denomination that is lead by man will result in the horrable 2nd death that the Bible talks about, just my opinion.
Thanks
[/quote]

The Bible rose out of the Church, not vice versa. The Bible means what the Church says It means.

0 Likes

#51

[quote=JKirkLVNV]The Bible rose out of the Church, not vice versa. The Bible means what the Church says It means.
[/quote]

Hi
The Bible means what God says it means. It is the word of God, not the word of the church. The church’s foundation is built on word of God not vise-versa.This is the reason that there are so many churches. Men change things to fit there beliefs. God chose a few men to relay his message, but our pride gets in the way so we change his word. Give credit where credit is due, and that is GOD.
Thanks.

0 Likes

#52

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi All
This is just my opinion but to follow the Bible and or Gods word is the only way to salvation. To follow man or a certain denomination that is lead by man will result in the horrable 2nd death that the Bible talks about, just my opinion.
Thanks
[/quote]

Would you say it is good to trust in your own understanding of the scriptures and not the understanding of other men?

0 Likes

#53

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi
The Bible means what God says it means. It is the word of God, not the word of the church. The church’s foundation is built on word of God not vise-versa.This is the reason that there are so many churches. Men change things to fit there beliefs. God chose a few men to relay his message, but our pride gets in the way so we change his word. Give credit where credit is due, and that is GOD.
Thanks.
[/quote]


God is not a God of confusion and that is why we have 35,000 denominations floating around…they interpret the Word as they see fit and if they do not like how that church is interpreting it…well, they start another denomination! :whacky:

And this is exactly what happened to Henry the 8th…and Luther. Although I believe Luther was a prophet for his time, his zeal, in the end, was corrupted by human pride. And this is what is happening today…friction upon friction and that many more denominations. It is a spirit of rebellion and deception as wonderfully shared by Johnette…and this is the Truth.

The bible came way after the Church began and when it did come to pass, it was the Catholic Church. THERE WERE NO OTHER DENOMINATIONS UNTILL THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY. This is a no brainer. I truly am exaperated when people cannot see this. If it weren’t for the Catholic Church, there would be no bible.

As Cestus said, maybe we should start changing copyright fees…:smiley:

In the end, it will become one Church…as prophesied. The Catholic Church…under the guidance of one Pope, the vicar of Christ as demonstrated when Jesus gave the keys to Peter…:smiley:

All denominations have been instituted by a human being…by man.

Blessings,
Shoshana

0 Likes

#54

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi
The Bible means what God says it means. It is the word of God, not the word of the church. The church’s foundation is built on word of God not vise-versa.This is the reason that there are so many churches. Men change things to fit there beliefs. God chose a few men to relay his message, but our pride gets in the way so we change his word. Give credit where credit is due, and that is GOD.
Thanks.
[/quote]

This is a grave error and an excellent example of how our schools, perhaps in their anxiety to keep up with science and technology, have neglected history. You need to take a course in Christian History. The Church’s foundation is built on the Words of Jesus to Peter,“Upon this rock, I will build my Church.” The Gospel in which that is recorded was written well after this event occured, indeed, long after the Lord ascended back to the Father. The story existed in the tradition of the Apostles (an oral tradition) before it was ever written down, as did all of the Gospels. Thus, those Gospels rose out of the Church that already existed. You rather laughably say “This is the reason that there are so many churches. Men change things to fit there beliefs. God chose a few men to relay his message, but our pride gets in the way so we change his word.” It was the Protestant Reformers who did this and paved the way for “so many churches.” There was, but one original! I hope you come to see the error of this "sola scriptura"
notion. Someone has to be able to authoritatively say,“This is what Scripture means and this is what It doesn’t mean!” We believe that Holy Writ Itself demonstrates that Christ made provision for just such a final authority, in the office held by Peter.

0 Likes

#55

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi
The Bible means what God says it means. It is the word of God, not the word of the church. The church’s foundation is built on word of God not vise-versa.This is the reason that there are so many churches. Men change things to fit there beliefs. God chose a few men to relay his message, but our pride gets in the way so we change his word. Give credit where credit is due, and that is GOD.
Thanks.
[/quote]

You said that men changed things to fit their beliefs. Which denominations do you believe have kept to the WOrd of GOd?

0 Likes

#56

[quote=jsussvsus] Men change things to fit there beliefs.
[/quote]

Not “men” but heretics and false prophets like Luther and company. There is only one Holy Catholic Church with Scriptures, Tradition and Magisterium. Deny one, the whole building falls down. It is quite clear: the only common thing that heretics have is the refusal of Authority: it is the only way to spread error and falsehood. Thank you heretics: every time you speak, you confirm us in the True Church.

0 Likes

#57

[quote=ceasar]do you believe that a person that is not of the catholic religion can be saved??? especially if he does not want to participate in your denomination. but, rather chooses to follow the bible instead on his own accord…

Ceasar
[/quote]

The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind…

Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.

At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole:

[list]
[The Council] relies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Church. When he insisted expressly on the necessity for faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its entirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church “with his body” but not “with his heart.” All the Church’s children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ’s special grace and not to their own deserts. If they fail to correspond with that grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be the more severe. (38)

[/list] On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church **Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
**

**http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM
**

0 Likes

#58

[quote=ceasar]do you believe that a person that is not of the catholic religion can be saved??? especially if he does not want to participate in your denomination. but, rather chooses to follow the bible instead on his own accord…

Ceasar
[/quote]

Hi All
I believe that ONLY Bible believing Christians are saved. I fear for the souls of my Catholic believing Family and Friends. I hope not to offend anybody but this is my belief.
Thanks.

0 Likes

#59

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi All
I believe that ONLY Bible believing Christians are saved. I fear for the souls of my Catholic believing Family and Friends. I hope not to offend anybody but this is my belief.
Thanks.
[/quote]

No offense at all. I believe in Bibles. I know they exist. I’ve seen them. :smiley: I also know of “bible believing” Christians who believe different things about what the Bible teaches. So I take it it doesn’t matter what you believe about the Bible as long as you believe in the Bible. The problem of course is that the Bible itself says “those who worship MUST worship in spirit and in TRUTH”. Therefore this hoge podge of Protestantism which claims to be Bible believing cannot be what it claims. It does matter what you believe about the Bible and there is a fullness of the truth by which we can KNOW the truth. We can KNOW what the Bible teaches. It’s the Cathoic Church friend. I’m a Bible believing Christian and that means that I submit to what it says through the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth, trusting not in my own understanding. (Prov 3:5).

Blessings

0 Likes

#60

[quote=jsussvsus]Hi All
I believe that ONLY Bible believing Christians are saved. I fear for the souls of my Catholic believing Family and Friends. I hope not to offend anybody but this is my belief.
Thanks.
[/quote]

**Ignorance doesn’t offend me. Ignorance mixed with hatred offends me. Like the ignorance and hatred you get from Bible believing Christians like the so-called Rev. Fred Phelps and the Ku Klux Klan. I hope you don’t think these people who use the Bible to justify the use of violence are saved without serious conversion.

You claim only Bible believing Christians are saved. My question is who is a Bible believing Christian? What makes someone a Bible believing Christian? Does believing what the Bible says make one a Bible believing Christian?

What does the Bible say? Here are some things the Bible says that I believe, all from the King James version of the Bible:

13: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14: And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-19)

16: He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. (Luke 10:16)


21: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23)

13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-15)
etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

I believe that Jesus founded His Church on the rock of Peter and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I believe Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom with the power to bind and loose on earth. I believe the apostles share in the mission of binding and loosing, as long as they are united to Peter, the rock on which Christ has built His Church.

I also believe whoever hears the apostles, hears Jesus. I believe Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins. I believe that we are to believe all the apostles taught, whether by word or letter.

I believe everything the Bible says, including the above passages. Do you believe everything the Bible says?
**

0 Likes

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.