Do you know of an Free Online version of the Talmud


#1

I dont know if Im getting in over my head here, but does anyone know where I can read the Oral Torah, from what I know its called the Talmud in an free online version?
Im guessing/hoping there is a modern day english translation.

Also do you know anything about it, have you read it, etc?


#2

[quote=Catholic Dude]I dont know if Im getting in over my head here, but does anyone know where I can read the Oral Torah, from what I know its called the Talmud in an free online version?
Im guessing/hoping there is a modern day english translation.

Also do you know anything about it, have you read it, etc?
[/quote]

May I suggest you send a PM to Stillsmallvoice…she has in the past provided some excellent links and perhaps can help you out.:smiley:


#3

Thanks Karin I will do that. I was pointed out to a Babylonian version by some people on another forum, but Im not sure if its the same thing as the other versions.

Also for anyone to answer,
Is there the Jewish equivalent to the Early Church Fathers?


#4

I’m not sure, but be careful. You’re getting into an area where you could easily be misled, including by yourself! :slight_smile:


#5

[quote=Catholic Dude]I dont know if Im getting in over my head here, but does anyone know where I can read the Oral Torah, from what I know its called the Talmud in an free online version?
Im guessing/hoping there is a modern day english translation.

Also do you know anything about it, have you read it, etc?
[/quote]

There are English translations, and the most up-to-date and thorough to my knowledge is that of Jacob Neusner. I have been unable to find an online text of the Talmud in either English or the original languages (Aramaic and Hebrew). You will need to visit a local academic library. Which is a good habit to get into anyway if you’re interested in religious subjects. Don’t rely solely on the Internet for any serious study. If you have trouble finding a good academic library near you, let me know where you live and I’ll see if I can figure out where the nearest one is. Often there may be more than you realize.

Probably the best way to tackle the Talmud, though, is to read selections. I did a search for “Talmud” on amazon.com and found a number of collections of extracts. You can do the same.

I want to study the Talmud myself one of these days, but I have too much on my plate right now . . . .

Edwin

Edwin


#6

[quote=Catholic Dude]Thanks Karin I will do that. I was pointed out to a Babylonian version by some people on another forum, but Im not sure if its the same thing as the other versions.

Also for anyone to answer,
Is there the Jewish equivalent to the Early Church Fathers?
[/quote]

The Talmud is the equivalent, in a way, except that the writings of the Fathers were never compiled together quite like that (some medieval texts like Peter Lombard’s Sentences have some resemblance).

The kernel of the Talmud is the Mishnah, which was written around the 2nd century A.D., I believe. It’s a legal text which allegedly records the oral law revealed to Moses at Sinai along with the Written Law. Over the centuries, as the rabbis commented on the Mishnah, they added this commentary (Gemara) in the margins. There were two majjor schools of rabbis who did this–one in Palestine and one in Babylon–and hence there are two Talmuds. The Palestinian Talmud is shorter and more fragmentary. It was compiled around 300 if I remember rightly. The Babylonian Talmud was put together about 200 years later, around A.D. 500. It’s the text usually meant when people speak of “the Talmud.” And then of course Jews have been commenting on the Talmud itself for the past 1500 years.

Edwin


#7

Hi, Catholic Dude,

Try:

sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

Also, try Google with: online Talmud or online Talmud English

Best,

reen12


#8

You’ve already been given the links to the Talmud, so I’ll just give you a couple of pointers.

First off, remember that it was compiled after Jesus, and after teh big split between Jews and Christians. There’s gonna be the occaisional thing in there that’s polemical against Christianity, but these are few and far between.

Second, the Talmud is extremely fascinating for a Catholic because it clearly demonstrates the continuation of Judaism in Catholicism. The preservation of oral tradition, and the commentary on it, perfectly mirrors the Church’s own style and history. It shows that the Catholic Church is the way it is precisely because it is Jewish at its roots, not because it is divorced from Judaism. The differences are not to be understated, but neither are the striking similarities. From a comparitive religion perspective, the Catholic faith and the traditions of Judaism are inseperably intertwined.


#9

Thanks for the link reen. I saw how big that thing was, huge volumes of writing, some stuff looked too complicated for me to even thing of.
I was hoping to find in it commentary on any given book of the OT, especially so I can see how they interpreted prophecy and such.

One big question that pops up is why dont Christians regularly include the Talmud in their studies? Catholics always get on Protestants for not looking into Church history, yet I have not seen any Christian references to Jewish Oral tradition. In otherwords holding the Written OT in your hand is really only a fraction of the big picture, just like interpreting the NT without the Early Church Fathers can lead to problems.


#10

One big question that pops up is why dont Christians regularly include the Talmud in their studies? Catholics always get on Protestants for not looking into Church history, yet I have not seen any Christian references to Jewish Oral tradition. In otherwords holding the Written OT in your hand is really only a fraction of the big picture, just like interpreting the NT without the Early Church Fathers can lead to problems.

Likely because much of the Talmud deals with aspects of the faith that were particular to the Law of the Hebrews, and not the Universal Covenant. Much of the Talmud discusses how Temple rituals are to be held, how specific holidays are to be observed, just what “keeping the Sabbath” entails, ect. It’s obvious from the writings of the Apostles that they, and much of their audience (namely the Jewish part) was quite familiar with the Mishnah, but it was almost always in the context of “don’t put those burdens on the Gentiles”.

For Christians, the biggest benefit the Talmud provides is that it records in some places the fact that early Christians did indeed live and believe as described in Acts, it records the fact that oral tradition is deeply tied into the roots of the Catholic faith and Apostalic belief; it’s practically a necessity in understanding everything about the way the Apostles taught. Finally, it fills in the details in just what exactly the Judaizers were on about, and what Paul was criticizing so often in his epistles.


#11

Hi, Catholic Dude,

quote:Catholic Dude

Thanks for the link reen. I saw how big that thing was, huge volumes of writing, some stuff looked too complicated for me to even thing of.
I was hoping to find in it commentary on any given book of the OT, especially so I can see how they interpreted prophecy and such.

One big question that pops up is why dont Christians regularly include the Talmud in their studies? Catholics always get on Protestants for not looking into Church history, yet I have not seen any Christian references to Jewish Oral tradition. In otherwords holding the Written OT in your hand is really only a fraction of the big picture, just like interpreting the NT without the Early Church Fathers can lead to problems.

OK, I’ll see if I can find a commentary on a single book
of the Tanach.
I’m ordering a CD with Tanach and commentaries, and I’ll let you know what that includes.

I’m looking for CD material on midrashic literature, too.

quote:Catholic Dude
In otherwords holding the Written OT in your hand is really only a fraction of the big picture, just like interpreting the NT without the Early Church Fathers can lead to problems.

Couldn’t agree more,

Best,
reen12


#12

Hi, Ghosty,

quote: Ghosty

Finally, it fills in the details in just what exactly the Judaizers were on about, and what Paul was criticizing so often in his epistles.

I wonder if the early Reformed Churches used the expression
"Catholicizers" for those who endeavored to keep elements
of the original faith, Catholicism?

Maybe they said: "…that’s exactly what the Catholicizers
were ‘on about’ ", too.

The addition of “izers” is in the eye of the beholder, huh?

reen12
aka Zusia


#13

I wonder if the early Reformed Churches used the expression
"Catholicizers" for those who endeavored to keep elements
of the original faith, Catholicism?

Likely they used something like that, and they’d be right in doing so. I’m certainly a “Catholicizer” about most things in life, though I’m also a Catholic so that’s to be expected. :slight_smile:

A perfect example of this is the Oxford Movement in the CoE, which lead to “Romanizing” a large chunk of that communion. It was definately refered to as such, and correctly so, as the object of the Oxford Movement was to make the CoE more like the Church of Rome.

The addition of “izers” is in the eye of the beholder, huh?

Not really, no. The addition of “izer” is just a recognition that the person in question wants to make things like the thing “ized”, meaning like the word being modified. They either do or they don’t. Judaizer isn’t a derogatory term at all, it just means that they wanted the Gentiles to become more Jewish. My reference to them and the Talmud is simply that it’s not well recorded what exactly those people wanted Gentiles to do, but the Talmud is a great record of all the details of what it means to be a strict Jew.

Basically, the Judaizers were wanting the Gentiles to confirm more strictly to what would later be known as the Talmud.


#14

Thanks for your thoughts, Ghosty,

Best,
reen12


#15

Thanks for the link, reen! I didn’t know about that resource.

Catholic Dude,

If you’re looking for Jewish interpretation of Scripture, you need to look elsewhere. The Midrashim (a “midrash” is a commentary on Scripture) which date from the early centuries of the Christian era as well would be the place to start. The Aramaic Targumim (a Targum is a paraphrase of Scripture) are also useful. The greatest medieval Jewish commentator was Rashi–many medieval Christian commentators consulted him.

Edwin


#16

Hello, Edwin,

quote: Edwin

If you’re looking for Jewish interpretation of Scripture, you need to look elsewhere. The Midrashim (a “midrash” is a commentary on Scripture) which date from the early centuries of the Christian era as well would be the place to start.

I did not know that midrashic literature dated solely

from
the early centuries of the Christian era.

While I’m aware that Rashi wrote in the medieval period,
I assumed that commentaries on the Tanach pre-dated the
Christian era.
Further, I understand that Rashi was given to pointing out
the simple meaning of the text, which, as far as I can
understand is antithetical to midrashic technique:

moreshet.net/oldsite/nechama/gilyonot%5C5760%5Cmethod.htm

What difficulty do you see with the link I gave Catholic Dude?
As I recall, commentaries by Rashi are included in that
link. What am I missing?

I understood midrashic literature to be extended, in the
sense that allegories are offered on the textual material,
as opposed to an undiluted “commentary” etc.

jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Other
[see explanation of midrash, under boldface **Other Writings]

i.e. midrash on the meaning of the figures on top of the
Ark, and the “message” that contains for Israel.

More like the writings of some of the Fathers of the Church,
rather than solely exegesis.

When you’ve had a chance to look at the links I’ve provided,
I’d appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks,

reen12


#17

I was told of a online commentary of a Jewish Sage named Rashi. Here it is. StillSmallVo pointed it out to me. It is really nice from what I have read so far, it looks confusing but its not.
When you follow the link it lists all the Bible books and when you click on the book then chapter it brings up that book and chapter, then there is a link on that same page that allows you to see the verse by verse commentary.


#18

Great! :slight_smile: Many thanks, Catholic Dude.
[hats off to stillsmallvoice :tiphat:]

reen12


#19

Hi, Contarini,

You were right! I meant to give Catholic Dude a link for
Tanach and commentaries and ended up giving him a
link for Talmud and commentaries.

Thanks for correcting my error.

reen12


#20

Hi, Catholic Dude,

I just realized, that on the thread that I started titled Huh?
I gave a link to the chabad.org site, and had noted
Rashi’s commentary on Malachi 1:11. [post# 55]

I love that site. It’s a treasure.

Best,
reen


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