Do you know who are the real Modernists in Islam?


Because the title of the thread is “Do you know who are the real Modernists in Islam?” not “Do you know who are the real Modernists that claim to be Muslims?”

They are too far removed to be included in the conversation, in my opinion. Allah knows best.


So, to you, modernism is not enough of a heresy to make one not Muslim?


Well, there’s modernism, and there’s post-modernism. To be honest, I was pointing out irony in my opening post, at the Wahhabis who claim to be upholding the Islam of the Salaf (first three generations of Muslims), who are pretty much Johnny come latelys who emerged in the Modern period, and today destroy the heritage of their own religion.


Which is also a lot like protestants!
I don’t think many people believe Wahhabis, usually they are called out by people in the West as well


There is that propaganda portrayed by Western media outlets, that if you’re a Muslim, you’re either one of two types:

  1. A ‘progressive’ liberal, wishy-washy type.

  2. An extremely ‘conservative’, Wahhabi type.

I remember there was some British programme on last year, I think it was called ‘Muslims like us’, where there was one ‘Muslim’ who was a homosexual, and his family defended his sexuality, whereas the people who objected, just happened to be supporters of ISIS?


I know the liberal one seems fairly strong, all in an attempt to make them seem “relatable”, as if we are all limp wristed liberals.
I don’t know about wahhabis, though, I’m pretty sure people don’t trust wahhabis in the West as being actual Muslims. Sometimes they are referred to as radicals.

I notice the news and Media usually try to water down almost any religious sentiment, or portray it as terrible and backward to their “enlightened” minds.


I’ll jump back in, because my original post (I think the first response…) was a a kneejerk reaction.

I did watch the video, and a couple days after I posted I realized that we are all looking at this in the wrong way (me too). Because of course if you just saw the video, and had no idea who the Saudis were, you would say “These guys are really modern! They are all about building new things and moving forwards, not backwards.” Which is all true as far as the material world goes. They ARE the real modernists! (ignoring their religious views)

They are also reminiscent of revolutionaries: The French and Russian revolutions set out to destroy the old order–throwing bodies of past kings into the Seine or destroying cathedrals (Russia). Then of course there’s the Cultural Revolution in China and the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. They all wanted nothing to do with the past, and they were all quite happy to destroy anything that reminded them of their past. The Saudis are acting in the same way, although for them it’s more of a religious than a political motive.


Exactly. Thank you.


I heard that this dishonest Zakir Nsik is hiding sonewhere in India as a wanted criminal for terrorism and money laundering.

Now Muslims have branded him dishonest. It is interesting because there have been so much debate and discussion especially between Christians and Muslims on what he said on Christianity. It has been such a waste of time.

What we can say of taqiya is that it is not a myth but a true reality of Muslims tactic in proselytization. Some of them may be common criminal and crook like Zakir Naik but most are not but are more subtle who nevertheless use Taqiya tactic in proselytizing, which is approved in Islam. Well until they are found out, like Zakir Naik.


sigh, this thread may be of interest to you:

For the record, I haven’t kept up with Zakir Naik in years (so I don’t know anything about what’s happening with him at the moment), because I knew he twists and distorts the writings of other religions for whatever gain, but of course in your mind, I’m probably lying to save face.


I am not saying you are lying. I only said Taqiya is valid doctrine in Islam, and yes, you may deny that, and we can argue about it, but there it is in Islam. If push come to shove, iow, when there is no other option, Muslims are allowed to use Taqiya.

I do not think you are using Taqiya though I can understand my mentioning Taqiya is hurting to you. The truth is not all Muslims use it; it is just available in Islam.

As for Zakir Naik, he brought lots of lies against Christianity and much time is wasted in defending those lies and many people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are influenced by him.

He is beyond defending. You can see that but I do not doubt you if you do not keep up with him anymore. He is a non-issue now anyway. I am only bringing him up because of the many personal encounters that we had with Muslims debatings issues on Zakir Naik.


Mohammedans do engage in different forms of deception. taqiyya muruna kitman and tawriya. Many Mohammedans do use deception. You will find it in the ahadith. I Know with absolute certainty that translators leave out parts of the ahadith that would be embarrassing to Mohammedanism. I have yet to find translators who will actually translate many parts of it.

Salam Khan, would you like to translate what happened between Mohammed and his cousins?
Would you like to translate this for us?


Zakir is on a INTERPOL wanted list. He is a person of interest in the Dkahr bombings, and for money laundering. HE is hiding out in Saudi at present. He was paying Rs. 50,0000 to each convert from money ge received from Saudi. So they want to find out more about money laundering and paying for conversions which is a crime in India.


That would be a false choice fallacy on their part.


You probably missed the part where I said that I don’t understand Arabic:

Besides, now you’re just going off topic.


Remember who burned down the Great Library of Alexandria…

If anyone wanted to know what the that was link was provided for translation was … it was from Mohamed al Tabari. He recorded Mohammed’s homosexual activity with his cousins.

Anyone what to know who Jibril (supposed to be Gabriel) was? Dahiya al-Kalabi was the most “beautiful” man among the Qurashi. When Mohammed described Jibril, his followers mentioned that that Jibril looked like Kalabi. One morning when the someone spotted Dahiya al-Kalabi leaving Mohammed’s residence some Jews asked Mohammed as to who that was… and you can guess what Mohammed’s response was… yep … That was Jibril. Dahiya al-Kalabi used to stay overnight at Mohammed’s home. At one point the men of Mecca asked Mohammed as to what he was going to do with the homosexual that he was keeping in his home, Mohammed’s reply was that was not a man but Jibril.

It is stuff like this that call into question as to who Jibril really was… the one who gave Momo all his revelations. There is more than just these. But I think if these are related CA Moderators might block me if I related more details from that ahadith.

There is also the instance of Mohammed who like to comb the hair of his bikini region left some of this hair on a comb which some Jew (yep it is always the Jews) took the hair and caused a demon to possess Momo. In fact this even is recorded in Bukhari the most trustworthy of the ahadith. The ahadith a full of this stuff that is just crazy. If anyone in the West or even Mohammedans knew what was in there, and the person was able to think critically they would leave Mohammedanism.

This is why persons like Sheikh Mohammad Tawhidi say that they do not want to follow the sunnah and rely only on the Qur’an and interpret as we moderns might read it. Obviously, the whole tafsir is thrown out as well which allows anyone impose their own interpretation on the Qur’an. Protestantism in that aspect is very much a “modernist” movement as every protestant interprets the bible for themselves.


It seems that from all Islamic countries - the Turks are the most modest after the Kamal revolution until this day. Am I wrong?
Perhaps even more moderate Islamic countries are Bosnia and Albania, which are candidate countries to the European Union.


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