Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?


#1

i have read books on demonic possession and the authors write about this condition called “perfect possession” wherein the person is so possessed that there is no longer any struggle whatsoever between good and evil going on in his/her soul/mind/heart. These are supposed to be basically immune to exorcism. In exorcisms of those who are NOT perfectly possessed, the devil has spoken about this and says that these people are “too far gone”. Yes, the devil lies, but during an exorcism, he is very often compelled to tell the truth, even against his strongest inclinations…

anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??

Even so, i will continue to pray rosaries over pro-abortionists… can’t hurt…


#2

The concept of perfect possession is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. I believe it was an invention of Malachi Martin.

When a person is possessed, it is his body, not his will that is controlled by Satan. A possessed person still has free will. God Himself doesn’t interfere with free will, why would He allow demons to have access to someone’s free will?

When it comes to diagnosing someone as possessed, that needs to be left to exorcists, period. We shouldn’t speculate about someone’s being possessed.

You are correct that the devil lies, but the “too far gone” theme is common in exorcisms. The demons want to discourage the exorcist from continuing. In many true accounts of exorcisms, you’ll find demons claiming they will never leave, the person belongs to them, etc. etc. In fact, I imagine this concept of “perfect posession” is a demonic lie. It sounds like a tactic to get people to despair. It is God’s will that all be saved. I can’t imagine Him handing someone over to the complete control of demons in this life. That would be Hell on earth.

All of this being said, abortion mills are evil places that I personally believe attract demons. Could a person become possessed or demonized by working at one or having or assisting another to get an abortion? I think that is quite possible for someone to be in demonic bondage as a result. Demons seem to be attracted to the occult and to heinous sins such as abortion.


#3

No, I think they are just evil people. Evil exists, and people can be evil all on their own without being possessed. The temptations of sin are plenty attractive without possession being necessary as an explanation.

God Bless


#4

Don’t give the devil more than his due. Man is capable of much evil on his own without demonic help. :wink:


#5

:thumbsup: …the devil did not make me do it, I chose to do it…


#6

That is true, BUT, demons DO exist, and they can influence people’s thoughts and behaviors. It doesn’t have to be an either/or, it can be both.


#7

“Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?”

Sort of…yeah. I know a few intense radicals at work who seem possessed when they argue with opponents. They totally lose it, turning red, panting, with bulging eyeballs and sweat building up on the brow. It’s fascinating to watch. I can’t believe how worked up they get. It’s a sign of immaturity, bad judgment, mild insanity, or demonic possession.:smiley:


#8

Undoubtedly Satan and its minions do exist but they cannot influence our free will and we do have all the Graces necessary to resist Satan. And too often I think we try to deny our darker side (I’m thinking of another thread!) by blaming it all on someone else somehow…and for this the devil can come in handy. We have nothing to fear from Satan, while we must be most wary of it and its insidious and totally evil nature.

I would be the amongst the very last persons probably to ever state or even hint that Satan etc. does not exist. But it is not more powerful than The Lord and His Grace - far far from that!

Barb:)


#9

Catholic Culture dictionary:http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35665



#10

If we do not share a common understanding of nouns and terms that we use, then one person may be writing or speaking of one thing, and another something entirely different. These are my understandings of demonic possession and obsession as per Catholic theology.

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

on
**Demonic Obsession **
and Possession

here

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial Black]Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl[/FONT]

[quote]

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]POSSESSION, DEMONIC. The inner control by the devil of the actions of the body in a human being.

The victim’s liberty of soul always remains intact.

Possession can be continual or intermittent, and the victim need not have culpably brought on the devil’s control. There is an official exorcism provided by the Church for possessed persons. Public exorcisms must be authorized by ecclesiastical authority.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial Black]OBSESSION, DIABOLICAL. The exterior control by the devil of a person’s actions, or of any other activity that affects human beings. The Church’s ritual mentions as probable signs of obsession such things as speaking or understanding an unknown tongue or showing strength above one’s natural capacity.

[quote] As in the case of possession, the devil is not allowed to force a person’s free will.

[/quote]

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/quote]


#11

Deceived yes, possessed not all.
I think it should be understood that the term possession can be used in the wrong context and that writters should be very weary of their use of it.
Godbless


#12

And both polarities of emporers wear the same clothes!:wink:


#13

[quote=Distracted]anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??
[/quote]

Many of us are familiar with cell phones - tiny wireless transmitters that carry our voices thousands of miles away. The technology is hidden to our eyes, but we know that these signals are very real.

How few of us consider that our thoughts are transitted to others and are capable of being understood by them, although in a subconscious manner. We think they are our own private possessions and indulge them mindlessly. God forbid they become expressed publicly, thus infecting everyone who reads them.

Hannah Hurnard wrote a wonderful book called “God’s Transmitters.” We are called to transmit God’s thoughts to others and cooperate with His saving grace and mercy, interceding for the salvation and conversion of those whom He brings to mind.

One quick way of thwarting the very redeeming grace of intercessory prayer is to indulge these condemning thoughts, "He/she is demon-possessed, and most surely going to hell!"
What can be the devastating outcome when the person receives these transmitted thoughts of condemnation and hell-fire? I guarantee it will NOT be conversion and amendment of life. They become even more fixated in their sin when we send forth negative, unholy thoughts … and don’t believe for a minute that these thoughts are not transmitted to others. The person may become bound by them, unable to receive the mercy and love of God which we should be transmitting in their stead.

OP, I have seen many of your posts in other sections of the forum that are so filled with condemnation that I can’t believe your many rosaries are heard, for this is not the heart and mind of God, who sent His Son, “not to condemn the world, but to save it.” And the timing of your thread just days before His holy Incarnation is totally imprudent and out of touch with the advent message - Come, Lord Jesus! In charity, I ask you to pray about this very seriously.


#14

Well, Malachi Martin was an exorcist priest for 30 years, and he was used as a consultant by exorcist priest in the Roman Catholic Church, until his death.

He was also a Theology Professor at the Vatican’s Pontifical Biblical Institute. His credentials on the subject, are impeccable.

I think he knew what he wrote and taught about, when it came to demonic possession.

“The possessed have almost invariably been involved in Satanism,” he says. “They are not innocents selected at random by passing demons. Most have made a deal with the Devil. Only later do they become aware of the Devil’s asking price.”

Satanism, he says, is far more widespread than is usually imagined. “The cruelty of these practices puts them beyond the civilized pale. I am speaking of human sacrifice, cannibalism and the sexual abuse of children. Not in far away countries long ago, but right here now in New York.” The symptoms of possession, Father Martin says, are often confused with mental illness. “Science spent a lot of time trying to prove that these people were, so to speak, loonies,” he says. “Now most of my cases are referred to me by psychiatrists.” Victims tend to undergo a startling change of personality. They may become unpredictable, violent and treacherous. They humiliate their families, plot against their friends, lie to their colleagues. “They have become alien entities. They have surrendered their wills. The most extreme state is ‘perfect possession’, when the demon has taken complete control. The perfectly possessed person is totally lost. There is nothing I can do,” says Father Martin. starharbor.com/fr_martin/exorcism.html

That being said. Radical supporters of abortion are sinners, as we all were at one time or another.

That does not mean they were possessed by demons, although there are those that could be. But its not up to us to discern demonic possession, but that of an exorcist priest.

Jim


#15

I don’t think anyone is denying that demonic possession and oppression exist, and most people bring it on themselves through satanic practices.

But, most pro-abortionists are not satanists and it is highly improbable that more than a tiny percentage of them suffers from any demonic influence.

God Bless


#16

bilop

I don’t think anyone is denying that demonic possession and oppression exist, and most people bring it on themselves through satanic practices.

True

But, most pro-abortionists are not satanists and it is highly improbable that more than a tiny percentage of them suffers from any demonic influence.

Demonic influence doesn’t mean possession. Influence to false misleading information, in this case abortion, can be demonic.

Just as the devil tempted evil with his influence, so aren’t we all.

Jim


#17

Jim,

I don’t doubt Martin had a lot of experience and knowledge when it comes to possession. But in this statement he is wrong, and dangerously wrong.

He is leading people to despair. No one is “totally lost” unless at the moment of death they die unrepentant in a state of mortal sin. To believe in his idea of perfect possession is to give up and lack trust in God. To believe one is totally lost before death is to commit grave sin against the Holy Spirit:

Six Sins against the Holy Spirit

All involving a stubborn resistance to inspiration and a contempt for the gifts, therefore “unforgivable” because of the lack of desire for repentance. (see Matthew 12:31-32 and 1 John 5:16-17).

** * Despair of one’s salvation (of God’s mercy)**
* Presumption of saving oneself without merit
* Resisting the known truth
* Envy of the graces received by others
* Obstinacy in one’s sins
* Final impenitence

Martin forgets both who he and the possessed person are in Christ. We are more than conquerors.

More Than Conquerors

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:28-39)


#18

Becky,
I know you have a problem with Malachi Martin, for some reason. But the Catholic Church did not.

Bold is my emphasis.

Father Malachi Martin, eminent theologian, thirty years an Exorcist, expert on the Catholic Church, former Jesuit and professor at the Vatican’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, is the author of numerous poignant, illuminating and controversial writings including these national best-selling books: Vatican, The Final Conclave, Hostage to the Devil, The Jesuits, The Keys of This Blood, and Windswept House. Father Martin was trained in theology at Louvain. There he received doctorates in the Semitic Languages, Archeology and Oriental History. Subsequently, he studied at Oxford and at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. From 1958 to 1964 he served the Holy See at the Vatican in Rome. Here, he was a close associate of the renowned Jesuit Cardinal, Augustin Bea, and His Holiness, Pope John XXIII. In 1964, Pope Paul VI released Father Martin from the vows of Poverty and Obedience in the Jesuit Order, but confirmed his vow of Celibacy. Pope Paul instructed Father Martin to report directly to the reigning Holy Father whoever he may be, or to some member of the papal Curia the reigning Pope designates. Because he is not affiliated with any diocese, Father does not wear clerical clothes in public. He celebrates Holy Mass daily. As a concerned, compassionate priest and enlightened scholar, Malachi Martin dares hold a candle to the truth, no matter where it shines or how difficult it mat be to accept. Father is forthrightly devoted to prayer, the Church and Our Lady of Guadalupe (”She’s my favorite!”), Saint Michael and the Holy Angels and Saints. He researches and writes from his creative base of operations in New York City, and was currently at work on a “Guide Book to the End Times,” before his death.

The late Father Malachi Martin was a renown exorcist and Jesuit, a one-time advisor to three Popes, and best-selling author. As a member of the Vatican Intelligence Network, under Pope John the 23rd, Martin helped extend the Church into Iron Curtain countries. In 1964, concerned about the corrupting influences of power, Martin was released from his vows of poverty and obedience after 25 years as a Jesuit. He left Rome for New York, where he did odd jobs until a Guggenheim Fellowship enabled him to write his first bestseller, Hostage to the Devil.fathermalachimartin.com/

Jim


#19

I have a hard time accepting a glowing endorsement from Martin’s own website. Even if he was all those things, he is not infallible.

Martin fell for, and then propagated the one huge lie that a demon possessing a person would like all of us to believe: that a person can be be so much under Satan’s control as to be beyond God’s capacity to save him. Satan would love for us to believe he is stronger than God, which is exactly what Martin is saying in his theory of “perfect possession.”

You, Jim, are putting your own soul and the souls of those reading this forum at risk by continuing to propagate Martin’s Doctrine of Despair. Please stop.

I think you need to step back and evaluate this attachment you have to Malachi Martin’s teachings.


#20

beckycmarie;

You, Jim, are putting your own soul and the souls of those reading this forum at risk by continuing to propagate Martin’s Doctrine of Despair. Please stop.

This is your opinion, and quite frankly insulting.

You’re no more an expert on this subject than I am.

Malachi Martin was an expert and a consultant to three Popes.

I think it is you, who needs to stop attacking the man and anyone who accepts what he wrote and taught. Heck, you might as well attack the Catholic Church, because the Church accepted his expertise.

Jim


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