Do you think that Allah is the same God as Jesus?


#273

To take your genealogy claim.
In Judaism the Jews can trace their history and genealogy back to Abraham.
Jesus (Christianity) can trace His human genealogy back to Abraham and as far back to the first Adam.
It is rumored that Islam “makes the claim” back to Abraham, but does not provide an unbroken genealogy, supported by historical facts to back it up.
Making a claim does not prove it fact.
Professing ones faith in One God, One Creator does not prove ones human genealogy back to Abraham. Yet, the profession the Muslim declares in One God, One Creator is not contested here.

I am not taking you up on your challenge lest we move off topic. I am questioning, if? the genealogy you presented meets the criteria to your challenge, then the genealogy I propose would debunk your challenge.


#274

I’m not sure what you think “filtered” entails, but a great deal of revelation is pretty clear and unambiguous.

If the revelation coming from one God is different from the revelation coming from a God who purports to be the same but reveals things in contradiction to the first, the Gods are not the same. In particular, when complete trust in that God is commanded. Which revelation is the trustworthy one, coming as they do from ostensibly the same God who reveals different and contradictory truths?

You aren’t, by the way, claiming that the supposed revelations by God through Mohammed are reconcilable with the revelations of Jesus, provided a bit of tweaking or some “filtering” here and there is made, are you?

As far as I can tell the “God” behind each set of revelations cannot be the same one because contradictory “truths” are revealed by each. The amount of “filtering” required to make them compatible would simply render both revelations as saying nothing that isn’t subject to complete revision by the humans applying that filtering. You may as well no longer call it revelation if the critical meaning of revelation is that malleable, and could have been discovered by human reason or intelligence anyways.


#275

You might consider engaging in a more amicable style of communication. In that way, you would encourage a more productive dialogue. Indeed. You would make that possible.


#276

Thanks “original Gabriel” for your correction… Yes I think the Aramaic influence was more in the Markan version… Mark 15:34. As to addresses of God as “Father” I would suggest the significance is a spiritual one … that is, the relationship between God and His creation can be a close one as a father is to a son.

During WWII I missed my father and on hearing the “Our Father…” I could sense the closeness

And as your own name “Gabriel” suggests “God is my strength”.


#277

I was not referring to a genealogical line. I was referring to a line of faith tradition. Biblical genealogy narratives are problematic with regard to the age of the human species, in that humans have been around a lot longer than the genealogical account in the bible accounts for.


#278

My style is intentional. Before we can see the truth of things, I suspect we need to move beyond our emotional attachment to the “truth” forced to carry water for our emotional fragility.

That is not to say we shouldn’t have an emotional attachment to the truth but the dependency shouldn’t be upon our emotions but on the truth.

I understand that might be off-putting, but that isn’t my purpose. My purpose is to uncover emotional bias when it intrudes on understanding.

I suspect you will have something to say about that. I also know you will be correct when you say it. I honestly mean that.


#279

Your welcome;
In the synoptic Gospel of Mark; We have the same scene on the Cross, where Jesus is fulfilling Passover by reciting one of the ending prophetic Psalms, where it is recorded verbatim “My God, My God”…

In the Psalm 22 context, the Words of Christ are mystical and spiritual because they transcend all of time. But I don’t consider them in a symbolic spiritual sense which does not exist in biblical faith theology.

Please consider when Jesus prays and teaches His disciples of who God is as His Father and Our Father. Here is a biblical example; (Please take note the Words Jesus pray’s marked in bold below from John 16, 17. Jesus Words are considered blasphemy in Islam. Why would Islam consider Jesus a prophet in Islam, and a Muslim? Could it be the reason Jesus spoke Hebrew/Aramaic, He is considered to be a Muslim?, and yet according to Islam it is blasphemy to call God, Father.)

John 16:25… The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures but I will tell you clearly about the Father.
27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have come to believe that I came from God.
28 I came from the Father and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
29 His disciples said, “Now you are talking plainly, and not in any figure of speech.
30 Now we realize that you know everything and that you do not need to have anyone question you. Because of this we believe that you came from God.”

John 17:1 When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven* and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you,
2 just as you gave him authority over all people,b so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.
3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
4 I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do.

5 Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.

13 But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely…
18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.*
25 Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me.


#280

From a faith tradition? Muslims will still find it difficult to prove. There are no Muslims practicing Islam in existence, prior to 600 a.d. Prior to Muhammad, Arabia consisted of Pagans, Catholic Christians, Christian heretics and Jews.

It depends if you are reading the biblical genealogy accounts in their correct literature language for example; The ages of the early Patriarch’s expound into the 100’s of years of age, for example; Moses lived to be 800 years ±. You don’t suppose to take these accounts literally? They have symbolic values, which can gauge the age of the universe without precision, we are not speaking of the biblical number study of Gematria.
In other words as to the age of the human species, the bible is not problematic, because it does not go as far as to date the age of the universe, the different biblical literature used, are calling us to faith, not to scientific precision.
In conclusion, I thank you for your clarification.
Peace be with you


#281

My dear friend Gabri-el … Thanks for your reply. You do have a dedication to “theology” as is your right but I would suggest it may also be a confining or limiting to a certain degree. Similarly you use the term “blashemy in Islam” again a term that conjures up religious authority.

Since we’ve been discussing Aramaic and Arabic to a degree and I posted this earlier, it still has relevance to the thread:


#282

While it’s true that Islam formed a number of centuries later than Christianity, I didn’t realize that there was a deadline for religions to form who claim to believe in the God of Abraham. As for the genealogy accounts in the bible, they are in fact problematic in that they don’t account for 194,000 years out of 200,000 years of human existence. We know that humans 3,000 years ago didn’t live to be 300 or even 100. The average life span was 35 years.


#283

Perhaps there is no deadline – if the religions are unrelated in origin, say, for example, Buddhism and Judaism. What one religion claims to be true won’t have a ‘buy before’ date on it, so a later one could state truths unstated by an earlier one.

However, if the claims contradict each other, we do have a problem. This is not to say the first is necessarily correct. But neither does it establish the later one is. Truth claims would have to be evaluated on their own merit.

The more critical issue, however, is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be revealed religions – at least in their crucial dogmas. This is a problem because it is purportedly God stating or revealing the truths in each and since at least some of the revealed truths are not subject to human discovery or corroboration, the initial revelation would seem to have a pre-eminence not available to the later.

Now historical corroboration – archeological, textual, etc. – can render claims of some religions as more reliable than others. The New Testament, for example, has a much richer provenance and is more historically verifiable than the Qur’an. The New Testament also has a myriad of support from the writings of Judaism. In a very real sense, the NT can be shown to have developed organically from the OT. That is not the case for the Qur’an which contradicts both in many places. That, along with the fact that we have only Mohammed’s authority to rely upon since he alone witnessed the revelations from Angel Gabriel.

Not sure how you are accumulating the number of years from the genealogies, but we wouldn’t presume descendants are counted from the end of the life of the previous ancestor. That might apply to Abraham who was something like a hundred years old when Isaac was born, but that doesn’t mean the years from one patriarch to another are counted from the end of life of each. The descendent could have been born when the father was in his twenties or thirties.

Also, we have no indication how calendar years were counted by the ancient Jews and Semetic peoples. They didn’t necessarily use a solar calendar so it would be unwise just to assume a year to the ancients meant the same as a year to us even if the Hebrew word is translated as ‘year.’

The Hebrew word for day, יוֹם, for example, could have dozens of meanings.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3117.htm

So to claim that the earth was created in six of our 24 hour days is not supported by the text.


#284

And if you would actually scroll down that page, and look on the right side what it says in red colour, you would see that yom is always being translated as day. And righfully so. So even by THAT text, it is supported that G’d created the world in six days, and rested, on the seventh, which is Shabbat.


#285

It can be said that there are several places where the Bible contradicts itself, not only NT contradicting OT, but also OT contradicting OT & NT contradicting NT. Why is this so? There are two possible explanations:

  1. These are copyist errors. This is the most popular explanation among Christians.

  2. Prophets often utter symbols and parables, and so although Prophets may differ to each other in expression, what they teach is similar or identical in meaning.


#286

Islam is an Abrahamic faith, but there interpretation or idea of it is a bit different, and they believe that Jesus was an important prophet, so I doubt they would ever think Jesus is the same as the God that Christians or Jews believe in.

Also, ‘Allah’ is Arabic for ‘God.’ Christians in the middle east, if they speak in Arabic, will say ‘Allah.’


#287

By your own logic, I would not include Jews since they, similar to Muslims, do not believe in the Trinitarian G-d or the divinity of Jesus. In fact, Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism in the sense that for Muslim believers, Jesus is a great prophet, while for Jews, He is not, only a revolutionary and wayward rabbi.


#288

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

Islam is a perversion of Judaism and Christianity.


#289

Well, you will have to specify which supposed contradictions you are speaking about. Without knowing what they are, it is a bit premature to try to explain them or explain them away.

I’ve done a bit of analysis into supposed contradictions and none that have been proposed are actually contradictory in the logical sense of impossible for both to be true at the same time and same respect.


#290

It is true that yom is typically translated as ‘day,’ but recall that the English word ‘day’ doesn’t always and merely mean a twenty-four hour period as reckoned by the motion of the Sun.

Take, for example, the meaning of ‘day’ that means ‘at a particular but unspecified time in the past,’ as in ‘one day a boy started teasing Grady’
Notice that the word ‘day’ doesn’t literally mean “a day,” but more like “a time.”

Even in your first quote from Genesis, God calls the light “day” and the darkness “night.” That would seem to indicate the word day simply meant something like “a period of light” or “a time of light.”

Given that the events that occurred on those first days were cosmic in nature – the Sun and moon were not created until the fourth day – it wouldn’t have made sense for the author to have meant day as the period of time from sunrise to sunrise because the author has made it clear that three “days” had preceded the creation of the sun and moon and other celestial bodies (Gen 1:14-16) which were created precisely to delineate day from night on earth and divide the chronology on the earth into “the day from the night; and let them [movement of the sun and moon, etc.] be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years…”

Ergo, “day” or yom couldn’t have meant a calendar day vis a vis the act of creation before calendar days even could have, logically speaking, been possible on the earth. The ancients weren’t clueless.


#291

What I posted in a question, you side tracked the point of order to which the subject is being addressed and changed it by implying a false credential to your understanding, when it was never asked for. But thank you anyway for your implied expertise.

Without changing the subject, if your superior intellect can humbly answer?
Is it blasphemy for a Muslim in Islam to call the One God, One Creator of the universe Father? A simple yes or no, will suffice.

The relevance to your “Aramaic and Arabic” post, while relevant to the thread. I have humbly discredited it’s false implication.

Peace be with you


#292

I find your post very interesting meltzerboy2.
You have all three religions believing Jesus existed. For me to hear that coming from a Jew, is a milestone.

Abraham proclaimed One God, One Creator, Muhammad profess One God, One creator, Jesus proved to be the Son of the Father, who is the One God, One Creator.


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