Do you think that Allah is the same God as Jesus?


#88

You seem to be working with a kind of selection bias in your understanding of Islam. If Monica83 is up for it, maybe you can join us too.


#89

It’s immaterial what they believe. Them not believing He is God doesn’t magically detach Him from the God of Abraham whom they do worship.


#90

This Raymond Ibrahim(whose article I posted. Did you read it?) is Coptic Egyptian with a doctorate in Medieval Islamic History at Catholic University and he took graduate courses at Georgetown University’s Center for Contemporary Arab Studies. I think those are good qualifications. Thanks though!


#91

I’m not the one making the claim.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the source making the claim that Muslims worship the same God we do and thus are not excluded from salvation.
So please take this up with the Magisterium.


#92

You mentioned two points:

  1. Islām does not teach that Jesus is God. This is true.

  2. Islām does not hold Jesus in high regard. This is false.

As far as the law punishing homosexual acts and adultery goes, if you are saying this proves Islām does not teach Jesus is God, then it also proves that Jesus is not the God of Moses, because in the Torah, God commands homosexual acts and adultery to be punished.

As far as using cases of forced conversions to prove that Islām doesn’t hold Jesus in high regard. This is a red herring. How so? Well, have you seen Klaus Kinski’s ‘Jesus Christ Savior’? Throughout it, he quotes Jesus’ criticisms towards the Pharisees, but he instead directs them towards the Catholic Church. Now, if I were to claim that the Catholic Church neither teaches that Jesus is God nor holds Jesus in high regard, in order to prove this, would it be relevant to point towards how the church as an organisation happens to be incredibly rich and happens to be full of corrupt clergy?


#93

That is indeed a brave honorable individual. I am talking about Islam as a whole. https://youtu.be/FZXJ3rooQxU


#94

I did read it. I am not impressed. It reads as polemic, and not scholarship.

Taking a course like the one I proposed would bring in a variety of perspectives and authors and not a single author who happens to say what you want. Second, the point of research is not to prove you are right, but to look at perspectives that are different from own and critically reflect on your own ideas and assumptions by placing them in dialogue with those perspectives. Finally, Ibrahim does not have a PhD, but rather an MA from Cal State, Fresno (see his bio on his webpage: http://raymondibrahim.com/about/).

My offer stands. I think I’d benefit from learning more, and I hope you would too.

Added in edit: If the academic training of an author is what you are looking for, try Reza Aslan’s No god but God.

Aslan’s degrees include a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Santa Clara University (Major focus: New Testament; Minor: Greek), a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University (Major focus: History of Religions), a PhD in the Sociology of Religions from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Iowa . . .

Aslan is a tenured Professor of Creative Writing at the University of California, Riverside and serves on the board of trustees for the Chicago Theological Seminary and The Yale Humanist Community, which supports atheists, agnostics, and humanists at home and abroad. A member of the American Academy of Religions, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the International Qur’anic Studies Association, Aslan’s previous academic positions include the Wallerstein Distinguished Professor of Religion, Community and Conflict at Drew University in New Jersey (2012-2013), and Visiting Assistant Professor of Religion at the University of Iowa (2000-2003).

I’m guessing Aslan, despite his credentials, would not sway you anymore than Ibrahim does me. So how about we skip the citation war and start out on a academic journey of openness and discovery together.


#95

#96

Then it’s a strange question. The violent extremists are also individuals, and not Islām as a whole.


#97

Forced conversions AND Muslims to this day stone for adultery and homosexuality as part of their religious law. Now if our Catechism of the Catholic Church stated that “clergy are allowed to molest young people” then that man may have a point, but its not in our religious law. Quite the contrary actually. At least the early Jews had an excuse to continue stoning for sexual issues as they didn’t claim Jesus as a prophet as Muslims do. Yet Jews stopped stoning a long time ago for sexual sins, but Muslims continue to this day? Jesus was totally against stoning the adultress and Mohammed didn’t adopt that sentiment that Jesus promoted(because of power).


#98

The forced conversions were also in the name of Islam and done by Mohammed(a religion you claim includes the person of Jesus who was merciful). Now if Jesus forced conversions, you may have a point.


#99

Yeah, not part of Islām.

It may interest you to know that stoning isn’t mentioned at all in the Qur’ān, it’s simply popular among the jurists in part due to a few traditions outside of the Qur’ān.

But God commands this in the Torah. Don’t you believe that Jesus is the God of Moses? Even if you say it’s not required anymore, can God command evil at any time?

In a famous tradition, when Prophet Muhammad was given the choice to be a Prophet-king or Prophet-servant, he chose to be Prophet-servant. Prophet Muhammad didn’t have lust for power.


#100

Well. There is only one God. Personally I think the God of Islam is just as different as the God of Judaism. I mean Jesus is a major prophet for them at least.


#101

There were forced conversions in the name of Christianity throughout history, even wars such as the Northern Crusades. So what? What does that even prove?


#102

#103

Dude, I’m a Muslim, and I’m not new to practicing or studying Islām either.


#104

What page is this on?


#105

Explain the destroying of the Christian communities in Anatolia (Turkey) by Muslim invaders. Same with Egypt and the rest of North Africa. The killing of the Jews of Medina? The Armenian Genocide?


#106

He wrote a book about it called Confessions of an Islamaphobe.


#107

Most of those examples are red herrings except:

This supposedly happened during the lifetime of the Prophet. Although it’s rejected by most academics as apocryphal because there’s no way 800+ Jews had even lived in Yathrib (as it was called then) let alone killed, considering how small the town was back then. Usually ‘conservative’ anti-Muslims only find this still relevant, because they read but apparently don’t think.


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