Do you think that Allah is the same God as Jesus?


#128

Maybe you should actually read the book for which I posted the link. As I said in my comment, it is food for thought on the stated topic of this thread.

To be honest with you, I think you’re trying to deflect.


#129

I think there is one true God. Catholics have the fullest understanding of him, for sure, but that doesn’t mean that others don’t worship Him, albeit not in His fullness.
I’m in agreement with the pp who intimated that Islam may well actually be a Christian heresy. Reading parts of the Quran and hadith it’s quite clear that Muhammad had contact with some form of Christianity that informed the content of what he wrote.
So, given that I will quite happily admit that other offshoots of Christianity worship the true God, albeit imperfectly, then sure, I’m happy to submit to the catechism on that point.
Not sure about equating the Oneness God Muslims worship with Jesus, though, I’ll admit. I’m not sure how it’s possible to deny someone is God almighty and worship Him at the same time…


#130

However, am I correct in saying that Muslims reject Jesus as God?


#131

God is the same today as yesterday. if they don’t believe in our God today, they did not believe in our God back when.

it all depends on how you define your god.

there are all kinds of gods,

it depends on what you want to worship


#132

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

My previous comments were removed because I called Islam satanic.

My comments weren’t unfounded false religions are the fruits of man’s pride and the deception of the evil one.


#133

Basically Islam is a amalgamation of different religions at the time of Muhammad’s life.

Islam is religious synchronicity at its worse.

Some apologists have called it a Christian heresy I don’t think that’s untrue but I would personally classify it as a cult.


#134

the muslim does not believe in Jesus’ message so how major of a prophet was he?

speak ill? Jesus tells us what to do with any home or town who doesn’t heed his word. speaking ill is the least of their worries.

Matthew 10
11Whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy and stay at his house until you move on. 12As you enter the house, greet its occupants. 13If the home is worthy, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.


#135

the koran holds the gospel to be inspired by God, but later claim it has been corrupted.

how convenient when faced with the divinity of Jesus

what does paul say about preaching the gospel of others?

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

was paul prophesying about islam?


#136

Penance Ware please say three Hail Mary’s for the Priest intentions before listening to the homilies.


#138

what could go wrong with that? being that it is introduced by diane moore an ordained minister in the christian church (disciples of christ).

islam ignores Jesus’ main message that there is no salvation outside of Him.

i guess if after you are beaten down enough and submit it isn’t a forced conversion.

  1. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

#139

How about Steven Weinberg and Neil DeGrasse Tyson? Or are they neo-Nazi kooks in your estimation?

Or several talks by Robert Reilly at the Institute of Catholic Culture? For example…

https://instituteofcatholicculture.org/talk/islam-yesterday-today-and-tomorrow/

The direct link might not work effectively because the ICC requests your email address before you can access their library of talks. So, you can go to the Library link, enter your email address in the field requesting it and then search for Robert Reilly or Islam.


#140

You may want to know about the cancellation of Aslan’s CNN show, Believer.

Aslan isn’t the scholar he is made out to be.


#141

I had no idea there were Hindu cannibals… :scream:

Ok, this old dog learned a new trick today…


#142

Wait a minute, here.

Mohammed comes along six centuries after Christ and the Church is formed, and several thousand years after the Jewish religion is founded, and appropriates many of the stories, persons and elements of both those religions, changing formed doctrine and what were taught as eternal truths by those religions subsuming them to his own ends and goals – military and political – then he and his followers decimate most of the Jewish and Christian communities in the Middle East and North Africa, and you want to speak about “demeaning the faith of others?”

I suppose you need to become more familiar with the ways in which Jewish people, Christians and pagans are referred to in the Surahs of the Qur’an.

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.[Surah IV, v. 56]

Allah hath cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief.[Surah IV, v. 46]

They [the Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal.[Surah III, v. 117-120]

And thou seest [Jews and Christians] vying one with another in sin and transgression and their devouring of illicit gain. Verily evil is what they do. Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evilspeaking and their devouring of illicit gain? … evil is their handiwork.[Surah V, v. 62, 63]

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. [Surah V, v. 51]

The most vehement of mankind in hostility [are] the Jews and the idolators.[Surah V, v. 82]

Fight against such of those [Jews and Christians] … until they pay for the tribute readily, being brought low.[Surah IX, v. 29]

[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies … commit evil and become engrossed in sin. [Surah II, v. 71-85]

Continued…


#143

These are not the words of a Catholic, but they certainly are demeaning to Jewish people and Christians. Are you concerned about how they will be read and “imagine what people of other religions would think of Catholics” Muslims?

So what do you propose ought to be done to ensure that the demeaning of the religions of others does not occur by anyone, including by Muslims who might just read those words as the unchangeable words of Allah?

Now it is unlikely in this diverse society in which we live that people generally take the words of one Catholic to be the words of all Catholics. Not that it doesn’t happen, but it takes an unreasonable individual to do so. However, there are some words and ideas that are foundational to religions, including for Catholics. We would assume that anyone NOT subscribing to those dogmatic and doctrinal beliefs – say the divinity of Christ – that are central to the faith, that such a person would not be orthodox, but unbelieving, uncatechized or had left the Church.

The problem is that the words from the Qur’an above, the words that do significantly demean Jews and Christians, are central to the religion of Islam because they come from the Surahs (chapters) of the Qur’an, the holiest book in Islam.

What are we to make of that? Ignore them and hope the troublesome parts will just disappear in a cloud of denial or disbelief?

I suspect it is not so easy for a Muslim believer to do so given that central to their faith is the idea that the Qur’an embodies the eternal command of God, and humans have no authority to revise or edit those words.

A bit of a pickle, no?


#144

Do I think Allah in Islam is the same God as revealed in the Bible? My answer is no. Judaism preceded Christianity so there’s that distinction. Islam came after despite the Father sending His Son into world. I’m not convinced Allah in Islam and the Trinitarian God as revealed by the Bible are the same.


#145

Jesus Himself is believed to have spoken Aramaic and the word for “God” in Aramaic is “Alaha”. Per Wikipedia:

Allah (/ˈælə, ˈɑːlə, əlˈlɑː/;[1][2] Arabic: الله‎, translit. Allāh, IPA: [ɑɫˈɫɑː(h)] ( listen)) is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religions. In the English language, the word generally refers to God in Islam.[3][4][5] The word is thought to be derived by contraction from al-ilāh, which means “the god”, and is related to El and Elah, the Hebrew and Aramaic words for God.[6][7]
The word Allah has been used by Arabic people of different religions since pre-Islamic times.[8] More specifically, it has been used as a term for God by Muslims (both Arab and non-Arab) and Arab Christians.[9] It is also often, albeit not exclusively, used in this way by Bábists, Bahá’ís, Mandaeans, Indonesian and Maltese Christians, and Mizrahi Jews.[10][11][12][13] Similar usage by Christians and Sikhs in West Malaysia has recently led to political and legal controversies.[14][15][16][17]

So yes I think Jesus used the same word for God as the Aramaic speaking people and the Arabic speaking peoples.


#146

Perhaps the question isn’t solved by assessing how the group of human beings go about “worshiping” God or Allah, but by what God, in each case, says about himself to the people that engenders their worship?

The God of the Old Testament doesn’t explicitly or implicitly refer to himself as Triune, so the Jewish people couldn’t possibly know that he is because he never revealed that little tidbit about himself to the Jews. There are, however, hints to that effect throughout the OT. I.e., “Let us make man in our image,” and I Am Who I Am - 1) I Am 2) Who 3) I Am.

Now, Jesus, second person in the Godhead, reveals something more about the nature of God to the first century Jews and subsequently to pagans who became believers – that God is a Trinity of persons.

So God in each case can only possibly be worshiped, in any real and meaningful sense, according to how he reveals his nature to the people. So it is in assessing what God in each religion says about himself to the people that a determination can be made whether God is the same in each case.

Christ, the God of the New Testament claimed to be the God of the Old Testament and searching through what he says about himself we find no incongruences with regard to the nature of God as he revealed himself. The God of the Old Testament never said he wasn’t Triune, he just didn’t speak about it explicitly and there is nothing in the OT that logically contradicts the possibility.

Now the God who purports to speak to Mohammed does say things that do contradict what the God of the New Testament, speaking through Jesus, says about himself. For example, Jesus claims to be God. Allah says Jesus is not God. So taking into account that what the God of Islam and the God of Judeo-Christianity say about themselves, it appears the two cannot possibly be the same, regardless of what people think or claim.

Why would God, speaking to Mohammad, say things which blatantly contradict what he said through Jesus?

That, in my book, would be sufficient to rule out the possibility that it is the same God speaking in each case, which means the people in question couldn’t actually be worshiping the same God, despite any superficial or metaphysical similarities.

So the question is, “Which God is the true God?”


#147

You are correct.


#148

No, they are not. And thank you. I notice that they do not debunk the fact of the Islamic Golden Age, but re-affirm it, as one might expect from two such noted scientists.

They also point out that the Golden Age ended and did not recur. True. That is the way with civilisations: it happened to the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans. I live in a nation which has seen its Golden Age come to an end within my lifetime:

Far-called, our navies melt away;
On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget.


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