Do you think the Extrodinary Mass will help bring back the SSPX?

Wouldn’t it be great if this was the start of that?

I have friends dear to me who helped me in my journey to Catholicism, who are now in SSPX. I know they are devoutly faithful and they believe they are following God’s call (and I don’t feels its for me to say how/if God is calling them) and do not consider themselves separated from our Holy Catholic Church. On the other hand I feel they are separated. They can give reasons why they are not, but I just can’t wrap my mind around it now, and just feel they are separated, which makes me feel bad for them, such good faithful Catholics, and all the other SSPX brethren.

And now I feel such great hope with the new Extrodinary Mass! Just the way it was presented, particularly what I caught on EWTN radio (Raymond Arroyo’s program, and he had a guest/guests).

Does anyone else think this is the beginning of that “coming home”/reunification?

It’s a step in that direction, for sure. Don’t expect it to happen within this decade, though…

It will not bring in the SSPX, now or even in a decade.
The effect, intended or not, is to “divide & conquer” the SSPX.
But, if the SSPX was vulnerable to just a Latin Mass, it would have disappeared back in 1988. Nearly every diocese that has an SSPX chapel, has had one or more TLM, and nothing has resulted.

in order for the SSPX to reconcile with rome it would have to be of their own accord

Rome would take them back but from my experience with SSPX memebers most are too stubborn and see no reason why they should reunite

I asked my friend if greater good could come from the SSPX being in union with rome, that they could help the diocese’s that are Lacking in the areas of Orthodoxy.

He basically said “Why should we, their Diocese go broke, we are making money, they are short on Priest’s our Seminarys are Full… No need to help them out”

Its a sad sad situation

Well I dont think, they are really outside?? are they?? The vatican speaks of unity, that it is an Interior matter. I think they will be absorbed gradually. when the excommunications are lifted. This Motu proprio, is a step…for sure.

Their priests always, ask for facultys from the local ordinary. in which they set up A chapel…This is not well known…but shows they do not have a schismatic mentality…I say God bless them.
if it were not for them, We wouldnt be seeing this M.P. I promise you that.

I have attended their chapels, good people, great Holy Priests. An edifying, experience…I may go again in the future…And no one will stop me…Or convince me that it is wrong to do so…

As TNT has aluded to, the issues dividing the SSPX from the bishops and Roman Curia go far deeper than the Latin Mass.

Basically there are many doctrinal and canonical issues which are very complex, and by every indication simply won’t be resolved anytime soon.

If anything, both sides appear to be digging in their heels, with only Pope Benedict and Bishop Fellay themselves responsible for any meaningful dialogue at all taking place. Most of their immediate followers are more than happy to part company with the other once and for all.

Thats the way I see the Vatican-SSPX relationship for now at least.

Don’t know, but the SSPX brought the TLM Mass back for the rest of us. We should be grateful for that at least.

Rome would take them back but from my experience with SSPX memebers most are too stubborn and see no reason why they should reunite.

Don’t confuse “members” (priests) with the Faithful who attend their Masses. Some of the latter are in dire need of education, and they tend to be the loudest and most frequently heard of their group. Also, don’t be confused by the “good cop, bad cop” routine that bishops Fellay and Williamson have been running for the past few years. They are fully united in their cause, even if Bishop Williamson comes across as an eccentric and renegade Englishman at times.

As for the prospects of “re-unification,” the SSPX has always asked for two things: (1) freedom for all priests to say the traditional Mass without the need for permission/indult, and (2) the lifting/annulment of the excommunications as a precondition for resuming the theological discussions about the doctrinal issues that have come about since the second Vatican Council. I think we can all agree that the first “condition” has been met; now we’re waiting on the second, and it’s not a huge request either (prior to re-starting talks with the Orthodox, Pope John Paul II lifted the excommunications of the Eastern Patriarchs).

In the long run this will all work out just fine. The SSPX and Rome will eventually strike a deal… either that or the FSSP and every other traditional Mass group is going to find themselves outside of “full union” with Rome as well since they are, in essence, fighting for the same thing.

I’m not really sure if that’s the case at all. There may well have been an Ecclesia Dei of sorts without the SSPX. I think the new motu proprio will weaken the SSPX a great deal.

[Edited by Moderator]

On other boards, I find myself defending the Novus Ordo establishment. On boards like this, I find myself defending the SSPX. Neither camp should be happy about that. :smiley:

Please show me one instance of “heresy” being spread by the SSPX. Also, you should certainly know by now that it has been clearly stated that the SSPX are not in schism.

I will be the first to concede that many of their adherents embrace a schismatic attitude, but the group itself (the bishops and priests) are neither heretical (far from it) nor schismatic (as per the Vatican).

Please stick to the topic. Do not discuss the validity or standing of the SSPX within the Church as that is another topic for another thread. Thank you all.

I think we will see an agreement soon. I could be wrong, but I expect it.

Rome has wanted an agreement with the SSPX for several several years, but the SSPX has been hesitant. The SSPX laid down two requirements before they would consider signing any agreement. The requirements were: 1.) That Rome would admit publicly what it admitted to the SSPX privately, which is, that the old Mass was never abrogated and thus that any priest could say it without any permission. Rome has met the first condition, which, in my opinion, will do untold good for the Church.

The second condition is for Rome to state that the SSPX is not in schism (which they began doing about a year ago), and either lift the “excommunication” or admit that it was never valid. There are so many “outs” in canon law that there is almost no way anyone can sincerely believe that the excommunication stuck.

Rome had told the SSPX that lifting the excommunication was easy, but that admitting that any Priest was allowed to say the Old Mass would be a problem. Since Rome has met the first condition (which was more difficult) I would assume that the second condition will follow “subito”.

Once the two conditions are met, I expect serious negotiations to begin, and some kind of apostolic administration to be set up.

I attended a talk by Bishop Fellay of the SSPX earlier this year. He said that there was some kind of “package” that Rome had put together for them. It was something more than an apostolic administration, or universal diocese. He wasn’t sure exactly what it was, but he seemed to think that it had been prepared and was ready to be offered to them.

[Edited by Moderator]

I think we can be certain that the excommunications will not be declared “invalid”…such an act would set a very dangerous precedent in the Church. The SSPX bishops would need to submit to the Pope and pledge their loyalty and have their excommunications lifted. [Edited by Moderator]

No.

No. I think it is far too late to say “Bless this mess” and just bring that back in whole and entire. And I really can’t imagine that is something they would ask for.

AND

***Yes. *** I do think many individual priests will, by their own initiative, return to unimpaired communion with Rome and have their status regularized. It will be case by case, not corporate.

No they didn’t–if anything, they have made it more difficult. Many bishops and priests associate the TLM with dissidence because of them. All the fears associated with the TLM are a direct result of the actions of the groups like the SSPX. Because of them, the rest of us who desire Masses under the extraordinary form have to go to much greater lengths to prove we are not like them.

After looking at the situation more closely - at least the accounts I have read - I wouldn’t exactly die of shock if ArchBishop LeFevre is one day vindicated, and subsequently, the excommunicatoins lifted. It just, well, it just doesn’t seem that far fetched.

I have no doubt *some *priests and bishops react to the TLM as you say because of the SSPX - but that is perhaps because they aren’t looking at the darn thing close enough - and perhaps they are so far removed from “traditional” things (the old ways) that it all seems foreign and strange to them. In other words, they are so swallowed up in the alleged “Spirit of Vatican II”, they genuinely don’t unerstand the concerns of those dastardly “traditionalists”.

I disagree with you on one point - if it were not for the SSPX - I truly doubt we’d even be having this conversation today. The TLM and so much more wouldn’t even be on most folks radar.

The Good Lord draws straight with crooked lines - remember :slight_smile:

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

With all due respect, I don’t accept this at all. The utter extirpation of the TLM in many diocese predated the SSPX. I remember very well the gleefulness of the “updaters” in telling parishioners that the TLM was incomprehensible, obscure, out-of date, not in keeping with “community” and so on. I remember the snickering at the “old ladies who rattled their rosaries” during TLM masses. No, I remember the final defection of the local SSPX people. It took awhile, and a lot of frustration on their part before they did it. My own father came close to joining them because of the abuses of ICEL (now recognized by the Vatican) and the ravings of the nut-case Joan Chittisters and all that. But he wouldn’t leave the Pope, and died faithful to him.

From what little I know, and I don’t claim to be an expert, most SSPX don’t consider themselves schismatic. But they absolutely do not trust the bishops. Many believe that the lefty bishops would pretend to take them in, then oppress and suppress them. Since my own bishop, for example, absolutely will not allow the TLM and has said he never will, and does not fail to destroy anything that looks traditional to him, who could blame the SSPXers for being suspicious? They would have to be insane to put themselves under the jurisdiction of some of the U.S. bishops we now have. Lots of non-SSPX Catholics don’t trust many of the bishops, and for good reason. Who should have trusted Weakland? Who trusts Mahoney?

I do think the future will find more and more bishops like Burke and Finn and Chaput being appointed. I think that ultimately the SSPX can have trust restored, and will rejoin the Church as regular members. I really do think that’s what it’s all about.

From what I have read of information put out by people who identify themselves as SSPX, the issues go far deeper than having the EF said, or the actual act of ordination by LeFebvre in direct violation of John Paul 2.

And it is not as if the SSPX were all on the same page internally. There are some who are simply very conservative and want the EF. There are others who outright reject the teaching of Vatican 2, and that is a whole lot more baggage than lifting an excommunication or saying Mass out of a particular missal.

Those who are rabidly anti Vatican 2 are not going to be brought in by either act - the EF or lifiting of an excommunication. and their demands to roll back, or refute the documents of Vatican 2 simply are not going to happen. Whether or not the ones who are not rabidly so will come back remains to be seen; but the United States is not going to be where this is hammered out; it will be in Europe, and primarily France.

Bringing back the SSPX to what? “Full communion” with a Modernist Church? A Modernist Church that claims the SSPX is in schism but has no problem going to Protestant services? Never will happen. The SSPX’s leaders will tell you time and time again that is the battle for the faith. I can’t believe people here claim the SSPX is in schism yet all is fine with the USCCB who hired a feminist, pro-abortionist to be the director of domestic policy for this board. If the truely conservative bishops of this nation had any backbone, they would pull their names from this organization and not give it a single cent. Or for that matter, they would follow the Holy Father’s directive on the Motu Proprio instead of saying “we have one TLM, and that is enough for an entire diocese.” That would be the day. The question is not if the Traditional Latin Mass will bring the SSPX to the Catholic faith, [edited by Moderator].

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