Does catholic Tradition outside of scripture come from man and not GOD?

This is excalibers girlfriend.
She will be making her own login as soon as her internet is working.

There are practices in the catholic church that are not coming from scripture, such as 1)praying to saints and angels
2) if we as people want to really know our God we must search the scriptures
Our self and study what God has to say never just accepting what man has to say
3) it is a commandment according to scripture to love and be at peace with all men,
But it is also our job when we come to the knowledge of the truth that we must
Be bold and unashamed like Paul and tell others regardless if they are offended.
God is His Word, study and learn it for it is alive and it is the truth.

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

and

John 1:21

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Welcome to excaliber’s girlfriend.

There are practices in the catholic church that are not coming from scripture, such as
1)Praying to saints and angels

:compcoff:
Just waiting for the avalanche of links.

  1. if we as people want to really know our God we must search the scriptures
    Our self and study what God has to say never just accepting what man has to say

Where in Scripture it says this.
Scripture tells us to listen to the Church which is the pillar and ground of truth.
I know of no passage in Scripture that tells us to “self study”

  1. it is a commandment according to scripture to love and be at peace with all men,
    But it is also our job when we come to the knowledge of the truth that we must
    Be bold and unashamed like Paul and tell others regardless if they are offended.

Paul disagrees with this. He attempted to be “all things to all men so that some might be saved”. Paul also said that we should be at peace and NOT give offense.
Sorry I don’t have the chapter and verse on this…but I just saw in in the last day or two.

God is His Word, study and learn it for it is alive and it is the truth.

Amen…

Peace
James

Exacal’s girlfriend, hello and welcome!!

I suggest you research just how and when the Bible came to be.
Many seem to think that the Bible, esp the New Testement just sort of was “there” at the time of Christ or soon their after.

For example, it is very clear that asking for the intercession of saints and angels actually PRE-dates the canon.

Research research research the early Church. research research research how the Bible came to be.

Research research research!!! :slight_smile:

There are things which we as Catholics believe which may appear to non-Catholics as being unscriptural, however, you must realize that not everything is easily understandable in scripture (2 Peter 3:16) and needs interpretation by the authority of the church. Also read: Acts 8:26-40, here you will see exactly what I am talking about.

Welcome!

I’ll take on your first statement that the Catholic Church practices things that “are not coming from Scripture.”

This is a common backward logic found with some of our Christian brothers. Here’s some food for thought:

Where did “The Bible” come from?

It didn’t always exist. There was no such thing in Christ’s time. And when St. Paul speaks of “Scripture,” he is referring to the books of the Old Testament, for historical evidence suggests that the first Gospels would not have been written earlier than AD 30. And it wasn’t until around AD 397 that the list of books that defined what books were to be in what we call the Bible were chosen.

So the first Christians had no “Bible” for nearly 400 years after Christ’s ascension. How then did these Christians learn and know the faith?

This answer is the heart of the Catholic faith and of Christianity as a whole. While Sacred Scripture (the Bible and other works) are key, it is not the sole rule of faith. It couldn’t be…it would be nearly 400 years before it was assembled. What Christ established was a Church, not a book. Starting with St. Peter as leader of the Apostles (the first Bishops), we have a Sacred Tradition, where the stories of Christ were told and passed on orally through the Apostles and other men they ordained as what we know as priests, bishops and deacons.

Remember: Most people did not read in ancient times, and it would be over a thousand years before the printing press would be invented to make books and have enough people able to read at all. Most people in ancient times had an excellent memory and passed on information verbally. Some information was written down but this was a laborious process and their media did not last long.

The Christian faith that you and I share is founded in history. We don’t believe that the Bible fell out of the sky. It is God’s word, but through its Church–the Catholic Church–holy men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were guided to build that book. No other Christian faiths existed since Christ founded it…and even when our Orthodox brethren split with us, you can see how very, very similar Catholics and they conduct prayers to the saints, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, the Sacraments and more.

While you’re as much as a Christian as we are, we here ask you to explore more about your faith. Test the history of the Church.

We welcome you to look through the Catholic.com resources, specifically, the Tracts section, for common questions and answers on why the Bible can’t be the only source of God’s word or His only element in His active ministry on Earth.

Prayerfully addressing the saints and angels is a laudable Old Testament practice, that Catholics continue to practice.

The inspired author of the Psalms prayerfully addressed the angels, saying:

Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! (Psalm 103:20)

Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host! (Psalm 148:2)

The three young men from the midst of fiery furnace prayerfully addressed the angels and saints, saying:

Bless the Lord, you angels of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. (Daniel 3:58, Septuagint*)

Bless the Lord, spirits and souls of the righteous, sing praise to him and highly exult him for ever. (Daniel 3:86, Septuagint*)

It seems to me that those Christians who are not praying to saints and angels, as Catholics do, are the ones who are following the traditions of men and not following the Bible.

  • The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament widely used by Greek-speaking Jews at the time of Christ and widely used by the first Christians. When the New Testament writers quote something from the Old Testament, they usually quote from the Septuagint. In the 1500s, Protestant reformers adopted an abridged version of this Old Testament, rejecting seven books and numerous verses from two other books, including the two verses from Daniel mentioned above.

Praying for the intercession of the saints has its authority in Revelations 5:7* et seq… *

Hi, Marie,

I’m actually doing a pretty intensive study in this area right now. Can you point me in the direction of any info that will help me understand that the intercession of saints and angels pre-date the canon? Any info will be very helpful.

Thanks,
Rita

Tell here she should read scripture more.:stuck_out_tongue: As far as the Prayers of the Saints tell her to go to revelations. If prayers of the Saints are wrong, why are they carrying them up to God?:wink:

This may help. Tell her to read the book of Job. Now Job was what we could call and Saint, do you not agree? God called him righteous.

SO in Job God tells Jobs friends to ask Job to pray for them, he will accept the prayers of Job. Now God did not accept the prayers of Jobs friends, how do we know? God said he would not.

SO the Saints we know are righteous. That is why we know their prayers are heard by God, and when we ask them to pray for us they know what we really need, better then us at times.

Then ask her friend is she believes in prayers for others, if her friend can pray for others, why can’t the Saints?:wink:

Consider that: it was decades after the crucifixion before NT scripture began to be committed to writing…not everything was written down…much was passed on by oral tradition, which the Church has tried faithfuly to preserve.
Consider also that nothing in catholic tradition contradicts what IS in scripture.

  1. We don’t pray to saints and angels…we ask then to pray for us.
  2. Self study without guidance (as to context, language of the day etc) leads to false assumptions. Just read any website where fundamentalists are posting alot of scripture in misguided ways.
  3. I don’t think any catholic practice or belief is at odds with that in any way

Look at post 9 for starters.

And these book/s:

The Crucified Rabbi

amazon.com/The-Crucified-Rabbi-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X

Signs of Life: 40 Catholic Customs and Their Biblical Roots
amazon.com/Signs-Life-Catholic-Customs-Biblical-ebook/dp/B002UBRFEQ

Rita there are some great resources right here on Catholic.com

catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Canon of Scripture was no settled until the late 4th century. The earliest dating for any of the works we now consider NT Scripture is 45 AD (Galatians), and far as I can tell that is a minority opinion among scholars. Most scholars believe the books of the NT were written from 50-100 AD with the earliest Gospel (believed to be Mark) written around 60 AD.

So we have about 20-30 years between the Resurrection and the writing of the Gospels, and another 300 years between the last book of the NT and the finalizing of the Canon.

Sorry, but no. The Codex Sinaiticus is most definitely a Bible, and it predates the Carthaginian canon list by about half a century. The Carthaginian list was the *formalisation *of the canon used in the West, where the Scriptures were translated into Latin, not the creation of a canon list of the whole Church, since the East continued with the Greek Septuagint and Greek NT.

Which actually reinforces the over-all point that it is “the Church” that Christ founded and gave his authority to. The Bible is something that developed over time and with certain variations within the Spirit guidedChurch.

So far as I know, these variations between East and West were not seen as a problem - and certainly did not figure in the East West Schism.

So - this development that we see only goes to show how interconnected is the Authority of the Church and Scripture - in combination - not apart.

One of the biggest “traditions of men” that so disturbs some is the whole concept of Sola Scriptura - and in particular that branch of SS called Solo Scriptura.

Peace
James

They aren’t, unless you’re trying to make some sort of assertion that the council of Carthage dogmatically determined the canon for the whole church. That, I believe, is what Mystophilus was primarily responding to - since it seems to be a favorite go to point in Catholic apologetics on the canon.

So…did those in the East disagree with what was decided at Carthage? Did they express any objection?

No - that was not my assertion. It’s simply one of those things that shows how artificial the whole “Bible Alone” thing is.
The differences in the canon between East and West - the Ancient Churches - was never really an issue. Why? Because Scripture resided firmly within the structure of the authoritative Church. Just as Jesus instituted the Church and as the Apostles and their successors built it and the Holy Spirit protected it.

So when a protestant comes forward with the argument “All you need is the Holy Bible”, the very first question out of our mouths should be “Which one?”:shrug:

This question can lead to all sorts of interesting conversations. :smiley:

Peace
James

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