Does Daniel 2: 31-35 prophesying the true church?


#1

Notably that was the dream of king Nebuchadnezzar interpreted by prophet Daniel from verse 38 -45 many years ago when the Jews were captured by the Babylonian empire. Flavius Josephus, a non-christian Jew, ventured to give meaning on this during the reign of emperor Vespasian of the pagan Roman empire, between 69 - 79 A.D., who requested Josephus to give a history of his people. The following were the meanings of the interpretation:
Head of gold - Babylonian empire
Chest and arms made of silver - Medo-Persian empire
Waist and hips made of bronze - Greek empire
Legs of iron, and the feet, partly iron and clay - Roman
empire

These interpretations had been known that the early christians like St. Hippolytus, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and even the well known Martin Luther accepted these without unfavorable comment. Meaning to say that these people may have learned that Josephus was right.

If it was so, what makes me wonder are the phrases found in Daniel 2: 34-35 that state "a great stone broke loose from a cliff without anyone touching it, struck the iron and clay feet of the statue, and shattered them. (and in verse 35) “…But the stone grew to be a mountain that covered the whole earth.”

Is the latter verse prophesying the true church, for it was interpreted by Daniel in verse 44 that God would establish a kingdom that will never end? For me the phrase “the stone grew to be a mountain that covered the whole earth” is somewhat prophetical. What can you say?


#2

I am thinking more likely the kingdom of the messiah.


#3

Kingdom of the Messiah. The Holy Catholic Church.

Toe-may-toe, Tuh-mah-toe.


#4

Thank you to both of you, brothers in Christ.:slight_smile:

Now, since then, I’ve been thinking why the magisterium of the catholic church insist in their teachings that the church is necessary for the salvation of all mankind. When in fact, on the other hand, other christian churches say that only Jesus Christ is the sole source of salvation which can be found in the holy scriptures, according to them.

Need not to say that I am a sola scriptura proponent, but my rational being compels me to seek from the scriptures where I could find a prophesy from the prophets of the old testament that would clearly link and locate the true church or the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ here on earth after He pronounced in Mat. 16: 18. Of all other prophesies, I find this Daniel 2: 31-35 a very intriguing prophesy which an ordinary bible reader won’t bother to give any importance. I am inclined to give scriptural and historical proofs to prove the relevancy of this prophesy.


#5

It would be very interesting to note that the dreamer was a pagan king, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia, not a prophet of the old covenant. But still the importance of the meaning of his dream gives light or maybe clears the way for truth. The dream reflects the historical events of the Jews in the hands of the four great empires of the gentiles, ruling them for many years, which could be proven also in scriptures.
The Babylonian (Jer. 52: 12 - 30)
The Medo-Persian (Daniel 8: 20) (2 Chron. 36: 20 - 21)
The Greek empire (1 Maccabees 1: 1 - 25)
The Roman empire (1 Maccabees 8: 1 - 16) (Formerly, the Jews were in alliance with the Romans but later on a revolution occurred which caused the conquer of Jerusalem by Pompey in 63 A.D.)
The birth of Christ occurred during the reign of emperor Augustus (Luke 2: 1) and when He grew up and started His ministry and build His church (Mat. 16: 18) it was during the reign of emperor Tiberius (Luke 3: 1).


#6

(I would rather make a slight correction of the year when Pompey conquered Jerusalem, it was 63 B.C.)

Christ was not accepted by the majority of his people (John 1: 11) and after his resurrection and ascension, Christ told Paul to go to Rome (Acts 23: 11). History tells us that Paul arrived in Rome in 61 A.D. while Peter went to Rome in 42 A.D. Proof to that is the epistle of Paul to the Romans which was written sometime between 57 - 58 A.D. at Corinth.

The great persecution of christians by the pagan Roman empire started in the reign of Nero (54 - 68 A.D.) until Constantine (312 A.D.) became the sole Roman emperor after winning the battle against Maxentius, the emperor of the eastern part of the Roman empire. The edict of Milan by Constantine gave freedom to all christians. Constantine moved his capital of dominion to Byzantium (part of Turkey) and named it Constantinople, the city equalled to Rome.
The fall of the western Roman empire was in 476 A.D. by the barbarians, but the church still existed. The fall of Constantinople by the islamic forces was in 1453 A.D.(now Istanbul).

I can conclude that the true church is none other but the Roman Catholic Church whose existence can be proven through scripture and historical proofs. If I offended somebody else of my statement just prove yours through scripture and history! I would be willing to refute it.


#7

“the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth” is first and formost Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Kingdom of God in person. He is alive and he rules the entire cosmos.

The Kingdom of God and the Church are related and are in close proximity because we are the body of Christ. The Church can be thought of as as the presence of the Kingdom in history, but the Kindom is much more than the Church. God is showing himself in history as it’s Lord and as the living God.

This is a complex subject, and I don’t know all the answers. I know in my heart the Church is completely related and tied to the Kingdom, but I don’t think Daniel 2:31-35 is ONLY refering to the Church. First and formost it is refering to Christ himself, and God’s sovereign rule.

*Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he said in reply, “The coming of the kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” *(Luke 17:20-21)

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#8

(The Douay says;
Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.)


#9

So it would seem that the Kingdom is within AND without. The parable of the weeds and the tares shows that some will go to heaven and some to hell, all while using it to illustrate the Kingdom of Heaven.

So I would imagine it’s the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, as well as the Church, the Bride of Christ.


#10

However it can be adduced that Christ was the rock according to (1 Cor. 10:4), but still it presupposes that the church or the faithfuls mean the rock. When the followers of Christ fleeing from the persecution of Saul (former name of Paul) and ran to Damascus to seek refuge, they were being followed by Saul with the intention to bring them back to Jerusalem and be prosecuted. But on his way a bright light struck his eyes causing him to fall down from his horse and he heard a voice saying “Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?” and after a brief questioning the voice then said “I am Jesus, whom you persecute!” (Acts 9: 1-6).
Besides, Daniel had already interpreted the rock to be the kingdom of God to be established. Daniel 2: 44-45).

In Mat. 21: 43 Jesus said to the Jews “the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce the proper fruits.” Theologians see this as the days for the gentiles as prophesied by Hosea 2: 23.
“So then, you Gentiles are not foreigners or strangers any longer; you are now citizens together with God’s people and members of the family of God. You, too, are built upon the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets , the corner stone being Christ Jesus himself.” (Ephesians 2: 19-20). Christ is faithful as the Son in charge of God’s house. We are His house…(Heb.3: 6). God’s household is the church, the pillar and the support of truth. (1 Tim. 3: 15).


#11

It could also be established by comparison to know whether the kingdom is also the church. Compare this (1 Cor. 15:24) to (Ephesians 5: 26 - 28). It is clear that they are just the same!


#12

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