Does Every Latin Catholic want unity

How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.

What would it take ?
Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Are you happy in a status quo situation, eg." I’m a Latin Catholic and I don’t feel we need the Eastern Orthodox church to be complete.

I for one feel that we need unity, especially amoung our Orthodox sisters and brothers. I feel that it would be far easier for Rome to unite with the east far easier that our Protestant brothers and sisters.
This is something I pray for everyday…:gopray:
Hopefully in my lifetime I will see it.
Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

Brad

What would it take ?

I’d like to be unity, to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Of course not! The holy Father’s role is one gave by Christ, God, and cannot be changed, if it is changed there is heresy. We don’t accept the heretics and schismatics until they don’t accept their errors.

Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

I hope this, but I don’t agree with a change of faith, authority etc; if something like this will happen.

[quote=Intrigued Latin]How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.

What would it take ?
Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Are you happy in a status quo situation, eg." I’m a Latin Catholic and I don’t feel we need the Eastern Orthodox church to be complete.

I for one feel that we need unity, especially amoung our Orthodox sisters and brothers. I feel that it would be far easier for Rome to unite with the east far easier that our Protestant brothers and sisters.
This is something I pray for everyday…:gopray:
Hopefully in my lifetime I will see it.
Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

Brad
[/quote]

I of course pray for a re-Unification of the church nightly. Having said that, we’ll see what JP II’s successor and the Holy Spirit have in store for us.

[quote=Intrigued Latin]How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.

What would it take ?
Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Are you happy in a status quo situation, eg." I’m a Latin Catholic and I don’t feel we need the Eastern Orthodox church to be complete.

I for one feel that we need unity, especially amoung our Orthodox sisters and brothers. I feel that it would be far easier for Rome to unite with the east far easier that our Protestant brothers and sisters.
This is something I pray for everyday…:gopray:
Hopefully in my lifetime I will see it.
Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

Brad
[/quote]

I think Catholics in general greatly under estimate the Orthodox rank and file’s disdain for the Catholic Church. I almost became Orhtodox and I have tons of Orthodox in my life since I married one. Orthodox tend to like individual Catholics just fine but they tend to look down their noses on Catholics in general. Just look at the way Greeks and other Orthodox tend to slap the outstreched hand of the Pope and others who maked concilliatory gestures, like the recent return of an Icon to the Russian orhodox Church.

Orthodox are raised to feel superior to Catholics. It is similar to the way Jews (like my dad) were raised to not believe in Christ. To many it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you don’t believe in Jesus. It is cultural and ingrained early on.

The real stumbling block to unity (other than the obvious - Papal Infallibility and the filioque) is the Orthodox themselves. They don’t care about unity like the Catholics do.

Those are this Protestants observations from personal experience and years of reading about Orthodoxy.

Mel

That which is in conformity with Rome and Rome declares is in conformity with her, is what I follow.

[quote=Melchior]I think Catholics in general greatly under estimate the Orthodox rank and file’s disdain for the Catholic Church. I almost became Orhtodox and I have tons of Orhtodox in my life since I married one. Orthodox tend to like individual Catholics just fine but they tend to look down their noses on Catholics in general. Just look at the way greeks and other Orhtodox tned to slap the outstreched hand of the Pope and others who maked concilliatory gestures, like the recent return of an Icon to the Russian orhodox Church.

Orthodox are raised to feel superior to Catholics. It is similar to the way Jews (like my dad) were raised to not believe in Christ. To many it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you don’t believe in Jesus. It is cultural and ingrained early on.

The real stumbling block to unity (other than the obvious - Papal Infallibility and the filioque) is the Orhtodox themselves. They don’t care about unity like the Catholics do.

Those are this Protestants observations from person experience and years of reading.

Mel
[/quote]

Mel,
This reply shows just as many issues on the Catholic side as the Orthodox side.

You can not generalize in the way you are doing.

You have not met every person who is Orthodox, I would bet that you have only met a very few of them and those only in one country.

I find this reply very unsettling.

[quote=Melchior]Just look at the way greeks and other Orhtodox tned to slap the outstreched hand of the Pope and others who maked concilliatory gestures, like the recent return of an Icon to the Russian orhodox Church.

Orthodox are raised to feel superior to Catholics. .Mel
[/quote]

Mel,
Can you elaborate on these gestures ? is there any documentation on the Greeks reaction on the return of the blessed icon of Our Lady of kazan ?

I sometimes have this inferiority complex with an Orthodox friend of mine. She is the daughter of a Greek Orthodox priest, so I can understand where the thoughts are comming from.

You said that you married an Orthodox, are you Catholic or Jewish ?

In Christ,
Brad

[quote=ByzCath]Mel,
This reply shows just as many issues on the Catholic side as the Orthodox side.

You can not generalize in the way you are doing.

You have not met every person who is Orthodox, I would bet that you have only met a very few of them and those only in one country.

I find this reply very unsettling.
[/quote]

Sorry, Dave. No offense or anything. But it is certainly just a generalization and, as I said, it is my experience. I attend a Byzantine Catholic Church fairly regularly and I frankly have more exposure to Orthodox folks than most non-Orthodox, including Eastern Catholics (here in the U.S.).

I stand by what I wrote. I know very many Orthodox in two countries. I am married into an Orthodox family and almost converted. Orthodox attitudes towards other Christians were one of the reasons (not the primary one) I did not end up Orthodox. I don’t like it, but pretending it is not the case does not change reality. The Pope gets booed in Greece. The Russians put major pressure on the Vatican for wanting to take care of her own in Russia and the Ukraine. I understand Byz Catholics are particularly sensitive to this. But I don’t see how pretending it is not a reality is helpful. Catholics need to understand this and figure out a way to deal. Ignoring this helps no one.

The Orthodox do not make anywhere near the effort that the Catholic Church does. Why? Because they see Rome as schismatics and unity will come when Catholics join the Orthodox Church. I could point you to many a well know Orhtodox teacher who say or have said as much.

Again, individual to individual relations are fine. But the ethos of the Orhtodox towards the Catholics is clearly different than the Catholic ethos towards the Orthodox. The Orthodox tend to have a long memory and are frankly not very forgiving towards past Catholic “sins” against them. Of course it is fair to say that many a Latin Catholic is woefully ignorant of what the Orthodox believe. And that is certainly an issue too.

Just my opinion. But I do know dozens of Orthodox people who are a major part of my life.

Mel

[quote=Intrigued Latin]Mel,
Can you elaborate on these gestures ? is there any documentation on the Greeks reaction on the return of the blessed icon of Our Lady of kazan ?

I sometimes have this inferiority complex with an Orthodox friend of mine. She is the daughter of a Greek Orthodox priest, so I can understand where the thoughts are comming from.

You said that you married an Orthodox, are you Catholic or Jewish ?

In Christ,
Brad
[/quote]

Hi Brad,

I don’t know about all the Greek responses, but what I have heard is on the lines of “Well it’s about time since the Catholics stole it in the first place.” also the Popes last trip to Greece was met with considerable hostility. And he was there to apologize for things done centuries ago!

As for me I married a Greek Orthodox girl and I was married in the Orthodox Church. I am a Protestant but My father was a Jew and my mother is Catholic. I was raised Catholic.

It is expected that when you marry an Orthodox you become Orthodox, particularly if you are Catholic. Well let’s just say there was quite a bit of controversy when my wife became an Evangelical. It was not at the begininning that I almost converted. I studied Orthodoxy for nearly 8 years before I almost converted.

Mel

Mel,
Ok, I guess I was a bit touchy but…

After coming here I would have to say that most Latin Catholics are no worse.

They continually call the Orthodox schismatics, they say that unity must come by the Orthodox acknowledgeing the supremecy of the Pope.

And I could point you to many Western Catholic teachers who say that too.

I think this is part of the problem. We have to get past the pointing of fingers.

[quote=ByzCath]Mel,
Ok, I guess I was a bit touchy but…

After coming here I would have to say that most Latin Catholics are no worse.

They continually call the Orthodox schismatics, they say that unity must come by the Orthodox acknowledgeing the supremecy of the Pope.

And I could point you to many Western Catholic teachers who say that too.

I think this is part of the problem. We have to get past the pointing of fingers.
[/quote]

Fair enough. :thumbsup:

[quote=Melchior]It is expected that when you marry an Orthodox you become Orthodox, particularly if you are Catholic. Well let’s just say there was quite a bit of controversy when my wife became an Evangelical. It was not at the begininning that I almost converted. I studied Orthodoxy for nearly 8 years before I almost converted. Mel
[/quote]

So you are saying that you are still Protestant.
I’m not sure I understand the concept of becomming Orthodox when you marry one. My wife is Greek Orthodox and we married in the GO church, and in no way do I consider myself Eastern Orthodox, I could not “turn my back” on what I have beileved as a Latin Catholic for so many years, I still believe that the Pope has a definite role in the Chruch.

Brad

[quote=Intrigued Latin]So you are saying that you are still Protestant.
I’m not sure I understand the concept of becomming Orthodox when you marry one. My wife is Greek Orthodox and we married in the GO church, and in no way do I consider myself Eastern Orthodox, I could not “turn my back” on what I have beileved as a Latin Catholic for so many years, I still believe that the Pope has a definite role in the Chruch.

Brad
[/quote]

We have something in common. :slight_smile:

Well I guess I should clarify. From others I know who are married to Greeks they tend to convert. These are usually nominal Catholics. So I can see why a devote Catholic would not. As for us, we are both considering Catholicism. But we are moving slowly and carefully.

So you really did not get any pressure to convert, huh? You are fortunate.

Did you have a big, fat Greek wedding? :wink:

Mel

[quote=ByzCath]Mel,
Ok, I guess I was a bit touchy but…

After coming here I would have to say that most Latin Catholics are no worse.

They continually call the Orthodox schismatics, they say that unity must come by the Orthodox acknowledgeing the supremecy of the Pope.

And I could point you to many Western Catholic teachers who say that too.

I think this is part of the problem. We have to get past the pointing of fingers.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church strives endlessly to reunite the schismatic Orthodox churches back into Her fold.

Calling the Orthodox churches schismatic is hardly wrong, as they are in a state of schism. Calling Orthodox people schismatics maybe wrong, in that they are born into it, and don’t conciously choose to be in a state of schism from the True Church…

Asking the Orthodox Church to bow down to the supremacy of the pope is a prerequest for unity. It is impossible for the Church to change the role of the pope to bring back schismatics. Jesus left behind the role of the pope in the Church, and the Holy Spirit guided the Church to where it is today, and the role of the pope has been defined as is, and it cannot change. The Orthodox churches cannot enter into union with the Church without being in unioin with the pope.

If it matters any, I was baptized Chaldean Catholic, and attend Syriac masses on occasion.

God bless,

Mikey

I dearly hope and pray for reunion with the East. Every Friday, my entire office, contemplative prayer time and Mass are dedicated to it.

The East has preserved so much that the West needs to recover; her spirituality and her liturgy are treasures and gifts to the entire Christian world.

Yet, if my experience is indicative of the whole – and I hope it is not – reunion will take miracles. I flirted with becoming Orthodox. I encountered a truculent hatred of the Roman Church. They were still fulminating over the Fourth Crusade. The fact that Catholics today consider that a tragic point of history weighed not at all. The Pope’s apology was denigrated. The antagonisms between ethnic churches were thinly veiled under the “brothers in Orthodoxy” banner. Nobody thought it problematic that the Orthodox Church had a Bishop of Vienna (not in Vienna, mind you, of Vienna) but ranted vehemently about predatory inroads by the Pope in the Ukraine.

I met a couple of saints in that crowd, including a priest. But mostly the hardness of heart was unbreachable.

I pray for unity constantly. It is necessary. I suppose when the Pope throws himself at the feet of the Ecumenical Patriarch and confesses his heresy, we might hope for a little rapprochement but I wouldn’t look for much in the way of movement from the East. Recent headlines indicate some melting but it will take a miracle for anything real to happen.

[quote=Intrigued Latin] Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?
[/quote]

Here’s a “what-if”…just a “what-if,” mind you…

First, some background: The Holy Father, by nature of his position, serves the Catholic Church in three distinct capacities:

  1. He is the Bishop of Rome;
  2. He is the Patriarch of the Roman Catholic Church;
  3. He is the spiritual pastor of all Catholics, the Church Universal.

In fact, this three-tiered responsibility is reflected in the three-tiered tiara that new pontiffs are coronated with.

Now, each of the 22 other Churches that comprise the Catholic Church (i.e. the Eastern Catholic Churches) has their own heierarchial leader, be that a Patriarch, a Metropolitan Archbishop, or whatever.

My point is this: currently, the heierarchial leader of the Roman Catholic Church is the same man who serves as spiritual pastor to all Catholics. The Universal Shepherd of our Holy Catholic Church, by virtue of his additional roles, has very obvious ritual ties to only one of the sui iuris Churches, yet he is pastor to all.

Here’s my “what-if”…

What if the Roman Catholic Church were to add one layer of heierarchy to her organization - a separate “Patriarch,” if you will - putting her, at least organizationally, on the same plane vis a vis the pope as the other 22 Churches? What if we were to reorganize the Roman Catholic Church such that the organizational “buck” stops one level down from the Pope, just as it does in the other 22 Churches? This would eliminate the official ritual ties that the Pope has to the Roman Catholic Church, thus freeing his position to be one of Shepherd to the Universal Catholic Church.

The Papacy itself would remain intact; the Pope would remain Peter’s successor as our Universal Pastor, the Holder of the Keys. The idea that the Pope is the Shepherd of all Catholics, not just Roman Catholics, would be reinforced by removing him from the day-to-day operation of only one (albeit the largest) of our 23 Churches. Perhaps this official severing of ritual ties associated with the Papacy would make the position of the Pope more palatable to those of our brethren who now resist. True, this would clearly set the position of the Papacy up as something more than “first among equals” as the Orthodox view would hold it to be… but the statement quoted above clearly asks us to hypothesize with regard to changes in the role of the Pope! This would, indeed, be a change!

Thoughts? Comments?

Pilgrim,

So would the diocese of Rome not be part of the “Patriarchy of the West”?

Because the Pope is, by definition, the Bishop of Rome. You cannot seperate the two.

Why not?

Remember… we’re playing mind experiments here - thinking perhaps waaaaay outside the box.

What if we just changed the definition of the Pope?

…not being antagonistic, Brendan… just asking…

Christ did not say, "Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I shall build My Church… oh, and while you’re at it, could you look after the Diocese of Rome, too?"No sacrilege intended, just trying to illustrate a point. Christ charged Peter with the responsibility to look after THE Church, not A particular Church. WE (men) decided that the Bishop of Rome should be that guy… couldn’t we un-decide it?

again… just asking…

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