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Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist


#1565

I dont know. But we dont have to oppose something just because Calvin agreed with it.

This is what is prayed during the Liturgy of the Eucharist:

"Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ."


#1566

Thank you for sharing what is actually said at that point in the Liturgy. I am curious about what the sentences are before this one since this one contains the word “therefore”. This seems to indicate a prior need, action or requirement or qualification, "make holy, therefore,…


#1567

Calvin retained significant portions of the Apostolic faith, including infant baptism. He did value “the Lord’s supper” as an “ordinance”, though rejected Real Presence. This is where he came to odds with Luther, who believed more than just a spiritual communion.

I suppose that depends upon one’ s point of view. Obviously all those who received this teaching from the Apostles acknowledge that it is the Flesh and Blood of our lord, but many pagans have spurned this and desecrated the elements because they don’t regard it as such. Perception is one part of it, and the Teaching of Christ is another. One’s lack of ability to perceive what exists does not change what exists.

Jesus was God in the flesh, but not everyone regarded Him this way. That did not change the facts.

I agree. It is a question that an inquiring mind cannot really help asking, but it seems so much easier to leave it in the form of a Divine Mystery, as they do in the East. The attempt to rationalize and explain everything sometimes just seems to create more problems. I was just asked on another thread to “prove” that Jesus was referring to Real Presence in John 6, and told that if I could not do this, then I was reading into the text. Well, I find that many matters of the faith cannot be “proved” with Western science. That does not prevent me from accepting them, but I can see why it causes a stumbling block to some.


#1568

Bravo! Can we start right now? Today would be a very good day.


#1569

You know you are welcome to attend Mass any time. Going for research purposes is not a problem. :smile:

Here is a print of the ordinary form of the Latin Mass, so you can see the words before and after the epiclesis.

http://www.latinliturgy.com/OrdinaryFormMassText.pdf

You are right that the prayer to “make holy” is based on what occurs before.


#1570

Jesus never thought the father abandoned him, he was letting the pharisees and those at the bottom of the cross they were fulfilling prophesy. “My God My God why have you forsaken me” is the first line of Psalm 22, the psalm of the innocent man. In the psalm they taught the victim saying let God save him, cast lots for his clothes etct…

He also cites psalm 31 later, “Into thy hands Lord I commit my spirit”

Peace and God Bless
Ncene


#1571

Did someone suggest that the Spirit and the Father also “suffered”?

I think that isnt likely. They dont experience suffering like a human.

I think God did forsake Jesus in the manner of saving and defending Him against His being harmed and killed.


#1572

Not sure i look at it that way…i tend to think Calvary is not a respector of persons, or covenants…tis for the whole world.those predestined to be saved and those who reject Him…not a Calvinist on this


#1573

So the Spirit can laugh but not cry.love but not stuffer. …lol…dont forget the shortest bible verse even sentence in the bible…


#1574

Where does the Spirit do these things?


#1575

Well, what we believe is, it turns into Jesus.


#1576

Its how God regards the Supper. He regards them as the body and blood of His Son.


#1577

Do you mean the Holy Spirit , or God, or Jesus…God certainly demonstrates emotions in the bible, so suffer as in being hurt I would think is one of them.


#1578

I mean the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. He is God


#1579

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. How can the Comforter suffer?

Jesus suffered, for a time, and His Spirit comforted Him. He no longer suffers.

But im not claiming absolute fact here. This is my personal understanding.


#1580

Well He is more than just comforter, and for sure He can deliver and for sure He can even bring you towards suffering.

The Spirit can groan, and He can be grieved, and He can suffer along with us…He is not always our escape hatch from suffering…I mean He did drive Jesus out to the wilderness…and I would think that what ever the Father can feel , so to the HG .Whatever the Son can feel, so to the HG.


#1581

I never said we dont suffer, or shouldnt, or that the Holy Spirit doesnt lead us towards suffering.

Im saying that suffering is a human condition, not a pure Spirit. He leads, guides, gives understanding, posesses all knowledge. He is a Person. But He doesnt suffer, as in hunger, or thirst, or feel alone, or feel pain, or have needs, or feel remorse, or suffer loss, etc.

Jesus suffered much, on account of His human condition. He knew weakness, frailty, hunger, pain, missing loved ones, sorrow, etc.


#1582

Grieve:to cause to suffer… …Webster


#1583

Fair enough. Perhaps in sorrow, on account of man’s sin and loss.


#1584

No, the father was with Him. He chose the suffering. He knew the cup could not be passed, and He must drink of it.

He redeemed everyone, but not everyone chooses to take advantage of the payment.


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