In the above thread, an apologist said that “God has determined such intervention from all eternity, knowing that such persons would pray for it. God does not change His mind; no one controls God.”
So does that mean God already know what decision will I make in each stage of my life and whether I will go to hell or heaven? If yes, then it shouldn’t be my fault I can’t resist that sin. Because before I was born, God already know that at that time, I will not be able to resist that sin. And I can’t change what He has determined.
“Because before I was born, God already know that at that time, I will not be able to resist that sin.”
It may seem that a way but it really isn’t. There is no sin that a person is allowed to suffer that God doesn’t always give enough grace to defeat it. Without God we can do nothing, but then he is always there to support us in our trials. We are defeated only when we turn to the temptation instead of turning to him.
It may also seem that because God’s knowledge is so inclusive that he knows our destiny before it happens…true. But knowledge doesn’t force one to that destiny. For example, I may be on a top of a tall building, and I see a car coming down one street and a truck coming down another, and I know by looking at these two vehicles that they will crash. But my knowing before hand isn’t making them crash.
Our destiny is shaped by many things…prayer being a big factor.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
Seeing 2 cars running really fast in opposed direction on a same narrow lane, I know that they will surely going to hit each other. But my knowledge didn’t make them crash, it their fault for running too fast on a same lane and in oppose direction. But isn’t God planned for them to be crashed?
For example, God planned for saint Paul to drive horse going persecute Christians on that day so that he can be changed. If his friend know the matter beforehand and tell him not to go he wouldn’t listen. Or God planned the Egypt king to be stubborn because He already know what miracles He will do. Even if I was lived during that period and I prayed 24/7 that God to make the Egypt king listen to Moses and let the people go God wouldn’t change his plan to mind. He purposely make the king stubborn so that He could do that many miracles.
So it’s not completely the Egypt king’s fault that he didn’t listen to Moses, because God already chosen him to glory God by being stubborn so that God could do miracles.
“We are defeated only when we turn to the temptation instead of turning to him.” If king Egypt changed and listen to Moses at the 1st time, God wouldn’t be able to do what He want, so He make sure that king born as a stubborn baby.
God doesn’t plan for people to crash, or for Paul to persecute Christians, or for Pharaoh to resist Moses. He knows that they are going to do these things and therefore, He doesn’t have to change when He intervenes because His plan takes all of these factors into consideration from the very beginning. His plan involves helping people to avoid these situations. Unfortunately, people don’t always do what He wants them to do.
You cannot buy the Pharaoh’s heart and change it by saying a certain number of prayers. When you pray, you ask God to help Pharaoh, which God does. The question is, will Pharaoh respond to God’s help? God knows that Pharaoh will not, but He still helps anyways and Pharaoh says no.
Regarding your last comment, if Pharaoh did change and listen to Moses the first time, the God would never have planned to try to convince Him the other times because He would know that Pharaoh would agree the first time. So He doesn’t have to make Pharaoh stubborn. God wouldn’t have planned those miracles if Pharaoh didn’t plan on being stubborn.
We must also take into consideration that God does not see into the future. He is in the future. All things are present to Him (so technically, God doesn’t “plan” anything). One of my friends explained it to me this way:
Imagine a plastic drinking straw, with each different part of the straw representing a different moment in time: The creation of the universe, the creation of Adam and Eve, Moses speaking to Pharaoh, the coming of Christ, your birth, the crash on the road, etc.
When you hold the straw and look at it, you see separate moments in time. When God looks at the straw, He looks at it from the open end, seeing the whole straw and all the points in time in one moment.
Hope this helps
God doesn’t exist in time. Only we exist in time. He sees past, present and future simultaneously, in an eternal instant. God is like a man standing on top of a mountain, seeing all below in a single view. So he knows out future, seeing us in our future simultaneously as He sees us now. In fact, He sees all time simultaneously, from the beginning of the universe to the end of the universe.
The people below the mountain keep their freedom to chose their actions.
You ask if God sees what will become of me. However, there is no will be nor was when God looks upon us (something the preceding post spoke about). God sees all time as He does in an eternal instant.
God created time along with the universe. When did God live before He created the universe? Nowhen. God lives outside time in eternity.
This can seem hard to understand now. But we can know this after we have passed away.
But doesn’t God had plan for us? A woman struggled to study to get into law school. She pray and studied all night for months that her hair turn white gradually. Yet she did not get in. She cried a lot and was in depression for a while. She then go to retreat in hope of resilient. At the retreat, people heard her story and keep telling her that she should go for public relation. So after return home, she settled for public relations. Just a short time later, she got a job in her career and now she is a success, happy woman.
Isn’t it because God already have plan for her to become a public relations worker. And she shouldn’t have cry and depressed that she did not get into law school. Since it is a must that she must fail law school test. And she shouldn’t be regret that she was worried, because it is a must that she must be depressed so that she will go to retreat and find out the career path that God planned for her so she can be happy.
In summary, God planned every details of our life and we can’t change it so that his plan can go through correctly at the end. No matter how much she has studied to get in law school, she can’t get in because it is God’s plan.
You can be an unrepentant sinner and go to Hell, or you – even if you’re a great sinner right now, as I once was – can repent and turn to Jesus Christ, say you’re sorry, go to Confession and Communion if you’re Catholic, and live the rest of your life with Jesus Christ in mind, pray and go to Heaven. Whichever choice you make, it’s your choice, but since God knows everything – past, present and future – He knows which road you will take.
Another analogy would be a great novel you are going to read. You don’t know what the main character is going to do at the end, but God does. So, please understand that the decision to either follow or reject God is in you. Predestination, I believe, is used in deference to God’s Might, but there is no such thing as predestination per se. (If someone sees a flaw in this logic, please correct me.)
Hope it helped.
“He knows which road you will take.” Yes, and can I change this?
God does have a plan for us, with the end result being each one of us going to Heaven to be united with Him forever in eternity. This means that there are certain things that God wants us to do. There are also some instances when God will prevent us from doing something, like when He prevented Pharaoh’s men from reaching the other side of the Red Sea.
It is possible that the reason the woman you are speaking of couldn’t get into law school is because God wanted her to work in public relations (PR). I cannot know by reading about it online. For the sake of our discussion, lets assume that it was. If it was God’s will, it may not have been absolutely necessary for her to fail the law test. For example, perhaps there were people who had told her before that she should go into PR but she wouldn’t listen until after she failed the law test. Or, maybe if she had taken time to pray about “should I do this” (discerning) instead of “help me do this” then she could have figured it out ahead of time. In that case, it may not have been necessary for her to become depressed, or go to the retreat.
You can definitely change your road if you’re on a sinful one. Pray to God for the power to do so, ask that His will be done in your life, through Jesus Christ, since God’s will is that you be saved and be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
The only thing you can worry about is if you live a sinful lifestyle and don’t want to change. But that was my problem years ago and I prayed every night that God show me the way through Jesus Christ. And I never gave up praying that until He made my complete conversion possible. So, you see, even if you don’t want to change your sinful ways, you can pray to God to help you change them and He always hears your prayers.
Relax. Don’t worry. Figuratively, put it in a little package and send it to God and tell Him you can’t do it alone – He knows. And try to do good always.
Believe me, having the joy of Christ in your life is priceless.
Oh my. I am too tired to count all the contradictions in logic on this thread. Maybe tomorrow.
According to Catholic teaching yes. Since God is in state of timeless state hence not only he knows that you are in heaven or hell but he sees you in one of them right now in his timeless state.
If God have plan for each of of us that each will go to Heaven, and he will do interfere sometimes to prevent us from doing something, then why there are still people who go to Hell?
There are two views of this; God’s and ours. Our view of this is looking at it in time and from time, a piecemeal process. God’s view of this is looking at it in eternity and from eternity, a onemeal process. God sees all at once as if a done and accomplished.
So the answer to your question, your decisions you make are already factored into his view. So that even tho we have freedom to change our minds, he knows when and how and if, all this takes place in one glance. So that all the acts we make are not past or future but a now in God’s mind.
Therefore we must pray and make good decisions for this is all seen in where our place will be in eternity. And if someone would say hopelessly, “he knows and it dosen’t make any difference what I do”, he has this also factored in. So it makes a great deal of sense and importance to embrace God and live and die in him so we find our own place of happiness to fulfill that which God saw from before time began…that we come home to him in love that he might share his joy with us.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
There are people who go to Hell because they refuse to cooperate with God’s plan. They choose to do their own will instead of God’s. We are not forced to do what God wills, He lets us choose. Yes, God knows whether or not we will go to Hell, but we are not forced to go to Hell. Our actions are not dependent upon what God knows we will do. Rather, God is watching each of us make all of our choices at the same time. The reason He knows what I will do tomorrow is because He is watching me do it right now.
Also, while God does sometimes prevent us from doing something, that doesn’t take away our choice. For example, a man plans on killing his rival with a rifle (murder). God may choose to prevent this man from doing this by making his gun jam. But this didn’t take away the man’s choice or make him not sin since he would have killed his rival if he could.
Matthew 5:28Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
As to why God allows us to go to Hell, this is because God did give us free will. And free will means that there are consequences to our actions. Also, Heaven is the gift of spending eternity with God. If someone doesn’t want to spend eternity with God, then God won’t force him to go to Heaven, He will allow him to choose to go to Hell.
So…the Christian God creates with full knowledge that a person will be condemned,even before they are born and can commit the slightest sin. Yet, He still creates that person…Hmmmm…but He does give that person free will…free will that He knows the outcome for BEFORE the person is conceived.
Not such a great deal…ya think? Sounds to me like…I’ll hold off out of respect for the forum.
It isn’t right to see it this way. We decide to go to Hell by our actions/sins. But God that sees the future of you living your life knows what you will have done at the end of your life. But it is always the same, if you don’t get that eternity is involved, and that God knowing doesn’t mean God causing, then you can’t solve that.
Before the person is conceived in time. Look at the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was redeemed before she begot her Son. How could this be? Because of her life, which in Eternity is as present as the future. but the future you got, you decide it.
The Christian God’s foreknowledge is the issue…particularly when coupled with is creative powers. He puts out a bad model, and rather than recalling it, He sends it to the eternal scrapyard. He did cause it…knows He caused it, and punishes the victim of His poor design.
For true free will to exist, God must stay out of things entirely, which is what I have come to believe he does. We are born by the actions of our parents and we are on our own so far as God is concerned. It is a fair system, and I believe that God is fair.
Sin was not designed by God.
How many covenants do you need to see that God multiplies the possibilities, but mankind would not listen? Now God Himself came to us, in an eternal and supreme covenant.
God is not simply fair and just because he gives to the good and the bad, he gives in overabundance, if you are faithful.
Why do you say if God gives true free will, he should stay out of things? Does a command by God himself bind you in any way? No, you can disobey.
Ok, so this is what I understand so far :
Let’s say God has the time machine so He goes to the future to see what I will do and goes 100 years after the year I born to see whether I’m in heaven or hell; that’s how He knows everything in the future.
oldcelt asked why God saw someone will go to Hell yet still create that person.
Let’s say before create this guy, God goes to 100 years later so see whether he in hell or heaven. And let’s say God saw he is in hell. So God goes back and decided not to create him anymore so no one will have to suffer in hell.
But if God looks to the future, see him in hell, decided not to create him anymore, which means he will not be in hell 100 years later. Then the 1st time when God looked into the future He shouldn’t see him at all. ---- This is so time paradox and confusing.