Does it really matter?


#1

Someone told me that it doesn’t really matter what demonination/religion you belong to/believe as long as you believe and recieve Jesus Christ, etc. What do you guys say on that?


#2

No, the problem is when you try to determine what is meant by “believe and recieve Jesus Christ”, The Catholic Church means something completely different by it than the protestant Churches.

If we are to believe ALL of what Jesus Christ taugh then one must become a Catholic, that is, if the truth really matters to such a person.

The Gnostics accept Christ, just in a different manner, so do the Cathars and the Arians and others.

That is why God left us his Church to guide us in all truth, he didn’t leave us in darkess. If there is a real Jesus Christ then we can assume that he actually said something and had some intentions in mind, and that is founding his Church and not an unlimited number of denominations.

At least that is how I see it, I hope that helps.


#3

[quote=Asimis]No, the problem is when you try to determine what is meant by “believe and recieve Jesus Christ”, The Catholic Church means something completely different by it than the protestant Churches.

If we are to believe ALL of what Jesus Christ taugh then one must become a Catholic, that is, if the truth really matters to such a person.

The Gnostics accept Christ, just in a different manner, so do the Cathars and the Arians and others.

That is why God left us his Church to guide us in all truth, he didn’t leave us in darkess. If there is a real Jesus Christ then we can assume that he actually said something and had some intentions in mind, and that is founding his Church and not an unlimited number of denominations.

At least that is how I see it, I hope that helps.
[/quote]

Hmmmmmm…so in other words, if people want the FULL TRUTH, join the CC! But if they want some or half, join a non-Catholic church…is is kinda like that?


#4

Paris, ask these people who posed the question if they can say, “indifferentism”.

Jesus didn’t found the “Indifferentism” Church. . .so why hold to such narrow and limited beliefs? Even though it SOUNDS as though the standards are much MORE inclusive than ours, they aren’t. They negate the words, and the work, of Christ Himself.

Anyone who thinks that “just” belief in Jesus is what matters needs to look more carefully at his or her Bible, his or her church, and the history of his or her church as well.

If “just” belief in Jesus were necessary, and anything else the person believes or practices “doesn’t count”, then why convert the pagans? So long as they “believed” in Jesus, would it matter if they kept up the old ancestral lars and penates (Romans), added the name of Jesus (Mithrites), worshipped Him in the forest (Druids), sent their dead off in fiery boats (Vikings), etc. etc.? After all, providing they confess “Jesus is Lord”, they’re home free, aren’t they? No pesky things like believing hard truths or living a wholly different spiritual life, no need to hold fast to faith and tradition since everything can be reinvented, revised, or reworked to suit “society” at any stage.

Why is it that for 1500 years it wasn’t just “belief in Jesus” that made a person a Christian? Why has it only been for the past 500 years or so that the narrow, rigid, “confess Him with your mouth and you will be saved-ah” has become the criterion for one to be a “Christian”? Why is there such iconoclassicism, such a need for a blurring, a “simplifying”, a “trashing” of the entire history of Christianity, supposedly to “purify”, but rather making it ever murkier, ever more discordant, ever more rancourous, ever more immoral, relativistic, and indifferent?

Answer: It matters. It REALLY matters. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. . .ALL of Jesus, not just “sola scriptora”, “sola fides”, “non-denominationals”, “evangelicals”, etc. ALL Christianity and its history, not just the 21st century heresy or schism of the month.


#5

[quote=Paris Blues]Hmmmmmm…so in other words, if people want the FULL TRUTH, join the CC! But if they want some or half, join a non-Catholic church…is is kinda like that?
[/quote]

No, this is not about what WE want but about what God has commanded us to do and that is to accept The Catholic Church and EVERYTHING it teaches. Outside The Church there is only darkness, some MAY be saved outside of it by ways known only to God but the only way to be saved is by joining The Catholic Church.

Like even Christ said: Many will come in my name and will deceive many. Those who say follow Christ but reject The Church are the ones deceiving many,


#6

[quote=Asimis]No, this is not about what WE want but about what God has commanded us to do and that is to accept The Catholic Church and EVERYTHING it teaches. Outside The Church there is only darkness, some MAY be saved outside of it by ways known only to God but the only way to be saved is by joining The Catholic Church.

Like even Christ said: Many will come in my name and will deceive many. Those who say follow Christ but reject The Church are the ones deceiving many,
[/quote]

So He has commanded us to be in the Church, accept it’s teachings, and that, right? I am still confused on you can be saved ONLY in the CC. Why not the other churches? Because of the things they teach that are false? I have these thoughts in my head and I can’t seem to write them down to explain how I feel or something!:confused: Let me think this over…


#7

I mean, what are people saying or missing when they say the following:

“Christ should be the center of our Faith & nothing or no one else.”

This is from a non-Catholic P.O.V. Christ Himself and nothing else, huh?


#8

If you look at the New Testament model for the Church, there is absolutely no basis or precedent for a multitude of “denominations.” What you see are church communities being established in numerous places, but it is clear that they are not sef-contained “churches” or merely “spiritually linked” to some nebulous “spiritual” body of believers, as many “non-denominationals” believe in. For example the decisions handed down by the Council of Jereusalem in Acts 15 were binding on all the far flung Christian communities because they were tied, not just “spiritually” but organizationally as one visible Church. Paul spoke out forcefully against factionalism and by extension churches “multiplying by division.” The fact that there are a plethora of denominations is today does not legitimize it; it is in fact a scandal to believers and non-believers alike, as it was in the New Testament Church. It is so obviously apparent that Christ intended his Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, that it can only be justified after the fact. If Christ himself established ONE Church, does it make a difference if you belonged to it or not? :hmmm:


#9

Jesus explains this in the parable of the rich man asking what he must do to enter heaven. It is a direct question; Jesus however does NOT say all you need to do is “believe” in Him does He?
He explains one thing, then another, then still another, it is NOT any one thing, it’s ALL of the things He teaches. Many would love to make it simple, not so hard, just tell me the one thing I must do, these are the “sola” folks, just this one thing, so simple, so wrong. It isn’t simple, following Him takes courage, sacrifice; we truly need to live for Him.
Jesus teaches us to confess our sins to a human, He gives His Apostles the power to forgive or refuse to forgive sins, and He says if they forgive sins, the sins are forgiven in heaven, most protesters say it’s blasphemy to confess your sins to a priest, ya know why? They are ashamed; they don’t want to, it’s embarrassing. Maybe that’s why He established it that way, maybe He wants us to feel ashamed, and we should shouldn’t we? But, it’s so hard, let’s make it easier, if we can deny that He taught confession, we won’t have to embarrass ourselves!!! That’s just one of the many examples. The true presence in the Eucharist, the intercession of saints, it goes on and on. The point is we shouldn’t seek what makes us comfortable, we should seek the truth, the whole truth, and the whole truth is only found in one Church, guess which one, nah, you already know which one in your heart don’t you?


#10

[quote=Paris Blues]So He has commanded us to be in the Church, accept it’s teachings, and that, right? I am still confused on you can be saved ONLY in the CC. Why not the other churches? Because of the things they teach that are false? I have these thoughts in my head and I can’t seem to write them down to explain how I feel or something!:confused: Let me think this over…

[/quote]

Those Christians who will be saved from outside the Catholic Church will be saved if:

  1. They have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

  2. They are ignorant of their need to be in full fellowship with/participating in the sacraments of Christ’s true Church or cannot see the need due to insurmountable barriers to accepting the Church’s authority/as the true Church Christ founded.

  3. If they have not committed any mortal sins.

These 3 things hold for non-Christians, as well. For it is possible for non-Christians to have had a “baptism of desire” known to God alone. We cannot know who will be saved and who won’t. That is strictly up to God to decide. For he is not bound by the sacraments of the Church, but we human beings are who know about them and know that they ought to be the grounding of our lives in Christ are bound by them.

And in case you think this lets non-Catholics off the hook, think again. Just how easy do you think it is to be pleasing to God in this world of sin and temptation without the graces given to Christ’s Church? It is hard enough for those who are participating in the sacraments. Just think how hard it must be for those who haven’t any direct access to God’s graces? We must pray for them and do all we can to bring them the truth of Christ’s Church but always in the spirit of love.


#11

[quote=Fidelis]If Christ himself established ONE Church, does it make a difference if you belonged to it or not? :hmmm:
[/quote]

That’s WHAT I’m getting at!!! Non-Catholics tell me, “we only should have our faith in Christ alone” and yada yada yada, this and that, that and this, and - and I REALLY hate to say this - but just the way they say it and all gets ME to think, well, maybe they’re right! But deep down inside, I KNOW the CC IS THE CHURCH!!! AHHHHHHHH! See, sometimes I can’t stand myself because I’m one of those people that HAS to know the REAL truth, the REAL way! But when I hear this other stuff from non-Catholics, it makes me think weird!


#12

although it is very clear in scripture and early church history that christ left only one church, today we have over 33,000:eek: christian denominations. does it matter which of these you join? it most CERTAINLY DOES! if christ founded only one church, then all the others christian churches were founded by men. although they believe much that is true, and have many members who are sincere christians, we simply cannot choose any of them over the church founded by christ.:blessyou:


#13

Dear Paris Blues,

Dear Paris Blues,

How about this? To say that a person is saved
through the Catholic Church does *not *imply that
each indiviual must be literally part of the Catholic
Church. [Because if that *were the case, God help
those who have never even heard of Jesus.]

[There’s a thread going on that talks of baptism,
baptism of desire…probably more than you’'ll ever want to
know about incorporation into the Catholic Church.]

My understanding is, that if an individual is presented
with the claim that the Catholic Church is the church
founded by Jesus, and the individual sees the truth
of that claim… then to turn away from incorporation
into the Church would constitute a serious matter,
in terms of faith.

In the 1940’s, a priest named Father Feeney went
about declaiming that “there is no salvation outside
the Catholic Church”. He meant, literally, that one
had to be received into the Church to find salvation.
He was eventually excommunicated and his claim
was totally denied by Rome.

Does this help? * why? because* fact* matters.

reen12*


#14

[quote=mayra hart]although it is very clear in scripture and early church history that christ left only one church, today we have over 33,000:eek: christian denominations. does it matter which of these you join? it most CERTAINLY DOES! if christ founded only one church, then all the others christian churches were founded by men. although they believe much that is true, and have many members who are sincere christians, we simply cannot choose any of them over the church founded by christ.:blessyou:
[/quote]

I’m eating Skittles and thinking about what you guys are saying…

I know we are suppose to love our Protestant brothers and sisters and I’m TRYING to tell them why the CC is the Church and all.

Now I am wanting to tell them that the non-Catholic churches are just made by men, etc. but don’t want to judge them but would like for them to understand. However, I would hate to tell them that they are following false stuff…but WAIT!! Are we 100% sure that that’s the truth for that? I mean, I just don’t want to say that them and make them feel bad or anything (I’m the kind of person that does NOT like to hurt people’s feelings!)!

On the other hand, I’ve noticed big time that both denominations have different interpretations of the Bible! Yes, both seem to be truth but which one is the TRUTH? For example, I told someone about Confession and how 2 Cor. 5:18-20: "…all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . " and when I first saw that, I thought, hey, it DOES say about going to confession! I was amazed and thought, the CC IS THE TRUTH! But after I told her that, she quickly said:

"Reconciliation to God is not confession to a priest. Changing the term by which confession is named doesn’t change the act required and purpose.

God has reconciled (made compatible) to Himself, all those who believe Him… through Christ. He’s given us the ministry of ‘reconciliation’ (restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ), which is to share the gospel with others so they too can be ‘reconciled’ to God. That part in blue is from the Concordance. I believe that is what the ‘ministry of reconciliation’ is… sharing the gospel with the unsaved.

The Greek word translated “reconciled” above in that verse is “katallasso” meaning:

1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

Hope that helps give understanding of that verse. (Name) is better at explaining the other verse you mentioned - John 20:22–23. Maybe he’ll share with you on this one…"

…As if I’m stupid and don’t know what heck I’m talking about or don’t know how to interpret Scripture :tsktsk: (and I don’t too well I’ll admit!:o ). But that’s a good example of how non-Catholics interpret stuff…anything to say the CC is a big, fat ol’ liar! See what I mean?


#15

[quote=Paris Blues] “we only should have our faith in Christ alone” !
[/quote]

And we Catholics DO put our faith in one thing… CHRIST ALONE.

How is what you are hearing contradicting what the Catholic Church IS and professes??

I, as a Catholic, believe in Christ. And Christ ONLY (Christ alone). I believe Christ established a Church. How can we not? He didn’t leave us with anything else… BUT His Church to guide us.

The Church produced written documents as well. These were letters, epistles, gospels, etc… this Church eventually determined what made up the “set canon.” Today we call it the Holy Bible.

After the reformation… new sects of Christianity (those who follow Christ) came about. They all cling to this Bible alone… which has produced many other splinter groups.

What I am getting at… is this: When I NEED to find out HOW to follow Christ ALONE… I can rely on my prayers… I can rely on guidance from the Lord. When things arise that contradict, cause problems, etc, where do I go for answers? THE CHURCH. She is the pillar and foundation of Truth. She has the authority to guide. Not the Bible ALONE. How can it? The Bible needs a teacher. This is a fact. No nonCatholic can deny this. They just choose to follow “their teacher.” Which is either themselves or their pastor.

Capice?


#16

Paris,

what you are reading is a protestant REWRITING history!

WHO says that what is meant by John 20-23? Says who?

When I read it … the Holy Spirit GUIDES me into understanding the fact that Jesus gave authority to his followers to HEAR confessions. He gave them the authority.

Your friend who wrote you back has a different interpretation.

Who is right??

The Bible states that we need to go to “the Church” for these answers.

Ok… but, WHAT Church?

You see the problem?

I don’t really care WHAT interpretation someone has regarding baptism, confession, salvation, etc, … if it doesn’t jive with the Church that Christ left behind… I will not follow.

Regarding confession… Christ clearly gave his authority to His priesthood to hear confessions. The authority to forgive and retain. And HISTORY of the Church shows this.

The reformation and those who follow it have one giant task on hand: TO REWRITE HISTORY. They HAVE to… or else they will be left with egg on their face.


#17

[quote=RattleSnake]And we Catholics DO put our faith in one thing… CHRIST ALONE.

How is what you are hearing contradicting what the Catholic Church IS and professes??

[/quote]

Then you’re saying that it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to then like my question to the very top. Or does it matter because we also need to follow Church teachings?


#18

[quote=RattleSnake]Paris,

what you are reading is a protestant REWRITING history!

WHO says that what is meant by John 20-23? Says who?

When I read it … the Holy Spirit GUIDES me into understanding the fact that Jesus gave authority to his followers to HEAR confessions. He gave them the authority.

Your friend who wrote you back has a different interpretation.

Who is right??

The Bible states that we need to go to “the Church” for these answers.

Ok… but, WHAT Church?

You see the problem?

I don’t really care WHAT interpretation someone has regarding baptism, confession, salvation, etc, … if it doesn’t jive with the Church that Christ left behind… I will not follow.

Regarding confession… Christ clearly gave his authority to His priesthood to hear confessions. The authority to forgive and retain. And HISTORY of the Church shows this.

The reformation and those who follow it have one giant task on hand: TO REWRITE HISTORY. They HAVE to… or else they will be left with egg on their face.
[/quote]

Yeah but then non-Catholics will say something like,“the Bible doesn’t say anything like 'confess to a priest” or anything. It says who’s sins you forgive are forgiven…" but doesn’t say need to confess to a priest or a human being!"

See, that confused me until I started pursuing Catholicism. When I first read that Scripture, I thought it meant, forgive others and the sins YOU’VE commited yourself will be forgiven. If you don’t forgive those who hurt you, then you’re sins wont be forgiven either…that’s how I interpreted it and that’s how a non-Catholic would too I assume. But a Catholic would take that Scripture as simply going to a priest! See how confusing this can be?


#19

[quote=Paris Blues]Then you’re saying that it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to then like my question to the very top. Or does it matter because we also need to follow Church teachings?
[/quote]

Yes, it does matter.

One has the FULLNESS of faith. The other does not. In fact… I don’t even know how to DEFINE Protestantism… or this new brand of “nondenom Christians” (those who say… "I am just Christian).

They are ALL different. And, NO they do not all agree on “the essentials.”

I think it is wise to work with the Grace that God gave us. And to follow Christ according to “where we are at” in our journey. But, salvation is from Christ, and through His Church whether anyone likes it or not.

I would read Della’s post. She lays out the story real well.

I would say this: If you are being called to the Catholic Church… and you know in your heart that is where you belong. GO! Grab the plow… and don’t look back.

Now… quit worrying about “telling others” their errors! We are called to evangelize… however, this can be done in many ways. You don’t need to constantly point out THEIR errors. Look on the other side of the coin… show them your TRUTHS. Live your Catholic Faith to the fullest.

Trust me… it aint easy. I have a wife who is not Catholic. And I am constantly living by example. I have seen her change her way of thinking without me even saying a word. I have noticed many more crosses going up on the walls of my house. I have never told her to “go out and buy some crosses/crucifixes.”

At work… I get asked questions daily at lunch regarding “hard topics” that involve my faith. I just TELL them my Catholic position. I don’t criticize theirs. I have noticed many more questions arising because of my witness.

Keep praying. We all need work done on ourselves. We all need to know how to share our faith.

There is a great book out called: “How NOT to share your faith.”

Go get it. You will love it, my friend.


#20

[quote=Paris Blues]Yeah but then non-Catholics will say something like,“the Bible doesn’t say anything like 'confess to a priest” or anything. It says who’s sins you forgive are forgiven…" but doesn’t say need to confess to a priest or a human being!"

See, that confused me until I started pursuing Catholicism. When I first read that Scripture, I thought it meant, forgive others and the sins YOU’VE commited yourself will be forgiven. If you don’t forgive those who hurt you, then you’re sins wont be forgiven either…that’s how I interpreted it and that’s how a non-Catholic would too I assume. But a Catholic would take that Scripture as simply going to a priest! See how confusing this can be?
[/quote]

It is only confusing because Protestants have taken it upon themselves to do what they have NO authority to do–interpret the book of the Catholic Church. The Bible doesn’t belong to individuals. It belongs to the Church out of which it came, which determined which holy writings would be a part of it, which also compiled it, and preserved it down through the centuries. I hardly think any fundamentalist sitting in his living room just reading the Bible has a better understanding of it than the Church to which the Bible belongs. Do you?


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