Does Joseph have sexual relations with Mary


#1

My free church fellowship friend said that in Matthew 1 when it states that Joseph did not KNOW Mary untill after Jesus birth directly implies sexual relations. What say you?

Jeffrey


#2

This is known as the Heos Hou debate (from the Greek). It concentrates on the word for “until”. Protestants think it means a reversal of the previous action. Catholics think it doesn’t make a distinction either way. Like if I am leaving a room of children and I say, “behave until I get back.” This does not imply that they get to misbehave when I get back. This passage neither proves nor disproves perpetual virginity, and there is no passage in Scripture that explicitly says Mary had other children in utero.

Scott


#3

The point of this passage is to show that there was no way that Jesus came from Joseph’s loins since he did not “know” Mary during the time from the conception to the birth (and then beyond of course). It removes all doubt from the fact that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.


#4

“Does Joseph have sexual relations with Mary”?

Umm, as far as I know, only the Mormons believe in sexual relations after death.

Therefore, from most Christians’ standpoint, I would have to answer: No, both parties are dead, therefore they do not have sex with each other.


#5

[quote=GerardPaul]My free church fellowship friend said that in Matthew 1 when it states that Joseph did not KNOW Mary untill after Jesus birth directly implies sexual relations. What say you?

Jeffrey
[/quote]

Hi, Jeffrey. :slight_smile:

I say that Saint Jerome covered this in A.D. 383.
newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

And I ask your free church fellowship friend to offer writings from the Early Church contemporaries of Jerome who opposed what he wrote.

And I ask your friend to provide the first church writing that states that Joseph had relations with Mary.


#6

now u know he doesnt have relations with MARY—WHY EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION


#7

catholicoutlook.com/objections.php

scan down to “mary and the saints”

this site i found to be veryyy interesting and helpful in these areas. it presented many explanations for the various protestant objects that i hadnt heard before.


#8

It’s like saying Christ isn’t with us after the end of the age. For how many times did Christ say he would be with us “until” the end of the age? Point that out to your Bible-only friends.


#9

According to Mosaic law, if Joseph had relations with Mary who was with a child that was not his, he would have been stoned to death.

According to Mosaic law, if Mary had relations with Joseph after giving birth to a child that was not his, she would have been stoned to death. The prot-cult arguments also go against the early reformers who taught the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is why they are cults. They are deviants from a revolt. Art Sippo totally demolishes them:

Did Mary make a vow of perpetual celibacy? Some interpreters of Luke’s Gospel find evidence for it. After all, if an angel appeared to a betrothed woman and told her that she was to bear a son in the future, it would be logical of her to assume that it would be the child of her husband. Mary’s answer is very strange. It is as if she was not expecting to ever have a child.

It had been believed that celibacy was unknown among the Jews until we discovered Qumran. We now know that for the Qumran sectaries, celibacy was an eschatological symbol similar to what it is among true Christians.

We have no idea if this applied to Mary and Joseph. What we do know is that Mary was found to be pregnant before she and Joseph cohabitated. This meant that in the eyes of the community, her child was illegitimate. Whether Joseph expected to have relations with her or not makes no difference. He could still consider divorcing her for having broken their plan of celibacy. Once he found out that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit, he would have felt vindicated in their prior decision to forego intercourse and carried on with her just as they had planned.

But we now have another problem. It was really nice that Joseph had a revelation concerning Mary’s moral uprightness. But, the community did not have such a revelation. They all would have assumed that Mary had taken an illicit lover and the “angel story” would not have impressed them. As such it would have been a capital offense for both of them if Joseph ever had relations with Mary, let alone if they had any children. It is clear that the Holy Spirit had the right to do what he willed to Mary, especially since she gave her consent. After all, marriage is merely the eschatological anticipation of the union of Yahweh and his People (or in NT terminology Christ and his Church) after the Resurrection. There was no moral turpitude on anyone’s part, but under the Mosaic Law, Mary and Joseph were not free to consummate their marriage anyway.
geocities.com/rcatholic/sippo/sippo.html

These cults demand that Blessed Mary and (righteous) Joseph violate the Mosaic law by having sexual relations, thus rebel against God. Stay away from such ****, its spiritually toxic.

kepha1


#10

Absolutely not!!!

Karl Keating has written on this and in a way that is thorough and easy to understand.


#11

[quote=TomK]“Does Joseph have sexual relations with Mary”?

Umm, as far as I know, only the Mormons believe in sexual relations after death.

Therefore, from most Christians’ standpoint, I would have to answer: No, both parties are dead, therefore they do not have sex with each other.
[/quote]

:stuck_out_tongue:

I love it! Just like when Clinton was asked if he “is” having an affair.

Alan


#12

[quote=marineboy]now u know he doesnt have relations with MARY—WHY EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION
[/quote]

You really think Jeffrey actually “knows” this? How, from first hand information?

We ask this question because the scripture passage can easily be interpreted by well-intentioned, intelligent people to mean that Mary did, in fact have relations with Joseph.

In your defense, I also shudder a bit at the question. I think it’s kind of sick that we focus so much time and attention on the private matters of Jesus’ parents’ lives – at least after Jesus was born. Like if we ran into Jesus we’d say, “hey, Jesus, how’s it going. Your mom still a virgin?” Just doesn’t seem like a good topic among friends.

Alan


#13

[quote=GerardPaul]My free church fellowship friend said that in Matthew 1 when it states that Joseph did not KNOW Mary untill after Jesus birth directly implies sexual relations. What say you?

Jeffrey
[/quote]

Matt 1:25 "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus."

footnote: Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it. NAB.

Why would a woman that was so intimately touched & blessed by God, the greatest lover of all, want to lower herself to sexual relations with a mere mortal? :hmmm:

Ask your “friend” if the Word of God is open to anyones speculation or has that “gift” been bestowed on him/her alone? :wink:


#14

[left]I think what the first poster is asking, is did Joseph EVER have sexual relations with Mary. This does not necessarily mean for the conception of Jesus, but did Jesus have any brothers or sisters. It is evident in scripture He did in one scene in…

…John 7:3-5
(3)and Jesus’ brothers urged him to go to Judea for the celebration. “Go where your followers can see your miracles!” they scoffed. (4) You can’t become a public figure if you hie like this! If you can do such wonderful things, prove it to the world! (5) For even his brothers did not believe in Him.

Another scene in Luke 8:19
(19)Once when Jesus’ mother and brother came to see him, they couldn’t get ot him because of the crowds(20) Someone told Jsus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to see you.” (21) Jesus replied," My mother and mybrothers are all those who hear the message of God and obey it.

Hope that answers your question, God speed in your journeys with the Lord.
-Chris[/left]


#15

[quote=BoondockRev][left]I think what the first poster is asking, is did Joseph EVER have sexual relations with Mary. This does not necessarily mean for the conception of Jesus, but did Jesus have any brothers or sisters. It is evident in scripture He did in one scene in…
[/quote]

What is evident in both of those passages is that: while persons are called Jesus’ brothers, they are not called sons of Mary.


Abram and Lot, while called brothers, were uncle and nephew, respectively.

Brothers Joseph and Benjamin had 10 other brothers, yet the 12 brothers did not have the same mother.


#16

Hi,

I would be interested in knowing the Scriptures that would have prohibited the sexual union between a husband and wife as it relates to Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus. I heard a mention of the Mosaic Law, but nothing was cited. Thanks in advance.

In His Service,
Fredrock


#17

[quote=fredrock]Hi,

I would be interested in knowing the Scriptures that would have prohibited the sexual union between a husband and wife as it relates to Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus. I heard a mention of the Mosaic Law, but nothing was cited. Thanks in advance.

In His Service,
Fredrock
[/quote]

I may be wrong, but I don’t think anything in Scripture prohibited it. Neither does anything in Scripture say it happened. Good thing we’ve got Apostolic Tradition to clear that up:thumbsup:


#18

Hi,

I realize this is a sensitive subject for some so I humbly make this reply.

If an appeal cannot be made to the Mosaic Law, and I have not read where there is a prohibition.

Then I think the Scriptures are clear and nothing is taken away from Joseph or Mary by their sexual union.

It was permitted. It produced children. Why argue otherwise? What is gained by having to deny their at least six other children? They were normal people.

You have before you the account of Luke and the other Gospels, Acts, and other Epistles. They are the authority, not tradition.

In His Service,
Fredrock


#19

[quote=fredrock]Then I think the Scriptures are clear
[/quote]

I’m glad you think so, but the fact that there are thousands of denominations based on the Bible says otherwise. That’s why that Ethiopian guy needed help reading Scripture.

Here’s a question for you: why did Mary have to go live with John? “Behold your mother.” Did her other kids just ditch her?


#20

[quote=KennySe]What is evident in both of those passages is that: while persons are called Jesus’ brothers, they are not called sons of Mary.


Abram and Lot, while called brothers, were uncle and nephew, respectively.

Brothers Joseph and Benjamin had 10 other brothers, yet the 12 brothers did not have the same mother.
[/quote]

I suggest you should follow the Greek vocabulary because that’s the languange of the NT. “Adelphos” is used for brothers while “anepsios” (or suggenes) is for relatives.


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