Does Judaism assert that Christians are Edomites? Question to Jews and to Catholics


#1

I have heard that some times… mostly from bad-informed jewish people. Edomity is also something that Messianic Jews preach about Rabbinic Jews… reversing the equation… I think

It is certainly interesting. It has been told that the the elder (Esau) shall serve the younger (Jacob). Esau was rough as a hunter - Jacob was meanwhile tender and studious of the rights. Gentile have been fair children of Esau during much of their history (from Homeride heros until actual Occidental society) we prefer our bowels before than our souls. And Christianity has been a fair correction to that… but it is Something hard to hold. Jews, by their way, have an admirable history obeiding Law. I, myself, love a jewish girl, but I know I will never be able to hold her, because I am too dark… and she too much golden.

But Esau’s paradigm can be referred to Gentiles… not to Christians. Christianity condemended our sin to Death (Cross holding) so we are pure again… (there is not necessary to say that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and He saved Populum tuum.

Is it real that it is said that Christians are Edomites?

Please, erase this thread if there is bad information. Erase this if this sounds like an attack toward Jews… or an attack towards the Church. I have written some dramatically, but I live theology in a baudelairian manner.


#2

[quote="Archedreamer, post:1, topic:282239"]
Jews, by their way, have an admirable history obeiding Law. .

[/quote]

Have you read the old testament? The entire book is a document that shows that the Jewish people broke the law consistently, causing them to be drawn into exile and suffering. They had scarcely journeyed into the desert to the mountain of God, when they built a golden calf and worshiped it. Followed by exile after exile after exile.

The entire point of the Christian faith is that Christ came to help all, including the Jewish people, live the law by living it IN them. He lives the law for us, through us. We have proven, all mankind has, that we cannot keep it on our own.


#3

[quote="Archedreamer, post:1, topic:282239"]
I have heard that some times... mostly from bad-informed jewish people. Edomity is also something that Messianic Jews preach about Rabbinic Jews... reversing the equation... I think

It is certainly interesting. It has been told that the the elder (Esau) shall serve the younger (Jacob). Esau was rough as a hunter - Jacob was meanwhile tender and studious of the rights. Gentile have been fair children of Esau during much of their history (from Homeride heros until actual Occidental society) we prefer our bowels before than our souls. And Christianity has been a fair correction to that... but it is Something hard to hold. Jews, by their way, have an admirable history obeiding Law. I, myself, love a jewish girl, but I know I will never be able to hold her, because I am too dark... and she too much golden.

But Esau's paradigm can be referred to Gentiles... not to Christians. Christianity condemended our sin to Death (Cross holding) so we are pure again... (there is not necessary to say that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and He saved Populum tuum.

Is it real that it is said that Christians are Edomites?

Please, erase this thread if there is bad information. Erase this if this sounds like an attack toward Jews... or an attack towards the Church. I have written some dramatically, but I live theology in a baudelairian manner.

[/quote]

I believe the Edomites, who derived from Esau, were related to Pagan Romans, and only much later Christian Rome. But these people predate Christianity and became referred to as the enemy of Israel in ancient biblical times. The relation between Edomites and Hebrews (Judeans) is actually quite complicated.

BTW, if you live theology in a Baudelairian manner, are you also a Swedenborgian?


#4

[quote="bmullins, post:2, topic:282239"]
Have you read the old testament? The entire book is a document that shows that the Jewish people broke the law consistently, causing them to be drawn into exile and suffering. They had scarcely journeyed into the desert to the mountain of God, when they built a golden calf and worshiped it. Followed by exile after exile after exile.

The entire point of the Christian faith is that Christ came to help all, including the Jewish people, live the law by living it IN them. He lives the law for us, through us. We have proven, all mankind has, that we cannot keep it on our own.

[/quote]

I know... this is just an ode only as a dark Gentil... not as a Christian.

My point is that they are a paria people (who carry some kind of taint before other people's eyes, who cannot marry outside, who must circuncise and eat just some things) and they are still jews. Christian (catholics so much!) have also an admirable history. I talked as a totally pagan Gentile. I asserted that... I said that it could be okey call Edomites to pagan Gentiles. But I asked about name Christians as Edomites... if that is like that, and why Jews think that is right to do so.

Anyways, so hard juices against Jews are part of the full existence as divine people. Christians have too a dark history... certainly exaggerated by the neo-Pagan world.


#5

[quote="bmullins, post:2, topic:282239"]
The entire point of the Christian faith is that Christ came to help all, including the Jewish people, live the law by living it IN them. He lives the law for us, through us. We have proven, all mankind has, that we cannot keep it on our own.

[/quote]

I didn't know that. Awesome!


#6

[quote="Archedreamer, post:1, topic:282239"]
Is it real that it is said that Christians are Edomites?

[/quote]

I seem to remember reading that the word was used for the 'Roman Empire' (the arch-enemy).

I think you're being far too literal in your question, a rabbi of that time calling the Romans a bunch of Edomites didn't mean that they were, literally, Edomites but that they were very, very, very naughty. Bit like saying something like "You pig!" doesn't mean that you are genetically porcine.

Actually, the only people I've come across who talk about people being Edomites are Christian Identity people or propagandists for the 'StormFront' Talmud.


#7

The Edomites were an ancient Semitic people believed to be descended from Jacob's (Israel's) brother Esau, making them the closest relatives of the Israelites. They were later called Idumeans, just as the Judahites were called Judeans. They were forcibly converted to Judaism late in the pre-Christian Second Temple period. The kings and other leaders of the Herodian Dynasty were Jews of Idumean (Edomite) ancestry. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the expulsion of most Jews from the Holy Land the Idumeans disappear from history, likely being absorbed into general Jewish culture and forgetting their Edomite origins.

Later Judaism associated Rome with the Edomites, likely due to the political connection between the Romans and Herodians, and of course as a way of introducing Rome into Biblical prophesies that did not mention it, by making the Edomites, who were no longer a threat, represent the new enemy- Rome. It's not surprising to me that some would later extend this to Catholics due to the importance of Rome in Catholicism, and because of the partially real and partially imagined grievances the Jews have with Christians.

However, the more Biblical (and, coincidentally, historical) connection would be to the Jews themselves.

The theme of the younger brother taking over the inheritance of the older is common in the Old Testament. It happened with Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, Ephraim and Manasseh, and, in a more fuzzy way, with David and his many older brothers, and perhaps other things like the Davidic dynasty vs. Saul or later Solomon not being the oldest son of David. One might even draw a parallel with the Maccabees, who though descendants of Aaron were not of the family of priests that were supposed to be High Priests, yet for those of us who accept 1 and 2 Maccabees as Biblical they seem to have been chosen by God to lead the Israelites.

Though perhaps not 100% politically correct today, the New Testament connection seems to be with the people of the Old Covenant and the people of the New Covenant. The Firstborn, the people of the promise, for the most part (though obviously not all) reject salvation in Christ while many Gentiles accept it. Thus Esau would represent the Jews, the seemingly "legitimate" inheritors of the promises of God, while Jacob, the younger and at first less likable person, ends up inheriting the covenant and being the truly chosen one ("I loved Jacob but hated Esau") and thus represents the Christians (though Esau still becomes a great nation because of his descent from Abraham, we might point out, which we could connect to the Jews still remaining an important people and heirs to the less important covenant, and we might even take as a hopeful precedent the reconciliation of Jacob and Esau later in their lives).


#8

[quote="meltzerboy, post:3, topic:282239"]
BTW, if you live theology in a Baudelairian manner, are you also a Swedenborgian?

[/quote]

I have met them because of you. They have agreable things for my soul (such as marriage at Heaven) but german-german spirit -it has sense in the spanish world, when one confronts german-germans (germanoalemanes) to jewish-germans (judeoalemanes) - is too grey for me. I need from the eastern spirit - such as is much more phatastic see a jewish curly hair surrounding a german face - it is much more phantastic have jews - heroicist- things on my religious system... not just a half-marcionist religion. Anyways, I cannot change my religion, my blood is lutheran my friend! I just can say " God is all on me! " and at the same time not pass after that point... but that is another story. (It doesn't want to be a critic towards lutherans, just a joke about our cathegoric faith - by the same thing boundaried - I use this to make me agreable and not make think that I am a faithful knight of God)


#9

[quote="Kaninchen, post:6, topic:282239"]
Actually, the only people I've come across who talk about people being Edomites are Christian Identity people or propagandists for the 'StormFront' Talmud.

[/quote]

It is hard. I have always liked very much elaborate material arcans on my actual life. But receiving energy from my perverse spirit this can become dangerous.

Anyways, I didn't asked if Christians were supposed to be material Children of Esau, I just asked if it was real that Christians were supposed to be formal Benei. But it is real that if i make a question as How to imagine a real channel between Edomites and Christians without flesh? I am reckless so my systems fall developing material explanaitions upon all others. I imagine forms as shining stared circles... as material energy. Just know that I look energy makes me happy... but that is coloured- it is material. I am still behind the bars of my materialist way of love - ideas. (Disordered words - but maybe able to be rescued by the awesome arcanist jewish genius - better if you are psychologist)

[quote="Archedreamer, post:8, topic:282239"]
I have met them because of you. They have agreable things for my soul (such as marriage at Heaven) but german-german spirit -it has sense in the spanish world, when one confronts german-germans (germanoalemanes) to jewish-germans (judeoalemanes) - is too grey for me. I need from the eastern spirit - such as is much more phatastic see a jewish curly hair surrounding a german face - it is much more phantastic have jews - heroicist- things on my religious system... not just a half-marcionist religion. Anyways, I cannot change my religion, my blood is lutheran my friend! I just can say " God is all on me! " and at the same time not pass after that point... but that is another story. (It doesn't want to be a critic towards lutherans, just a joke about our cathegoric faith - by the same thing boundaried - I use this to make me agreable and not make think that I am a faithful knight of God)

[/quote]

My response was so frivolous. Swedenborgian is really interesting for me. Even it is not something that I think it should be right follow... I think that it will be excelent material for make from my life a work of (sacred) art;)

[quote="Aelred_Minor, post:7, topic:282239"]
The Edomites were an ancient Semitic people believed to be descended from Jacob's (Israel's) brother Esau, making them the closest relatives of the Israelites. They were later called Idumeans, just as the Judahites were called Judeans. They were forcibly converted to Judaism late in the pre-Christian Second Temple period. The kings and other leaders of the Herodian Dynasty were Jews of Idumean (Edomite) ancestry. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the expulsion of most Jews from the Holy Land the Idumeans disappear from history, likely being absorbed into general Jewish culture and forgetting their Edomite origins.

Later Judaism associated Rome with the Edomites, likely due to the political connection between the Romans and Herodians, and of course as a way of introducing Rome into Biblical prophesies that did not mention it, by making the Edomites, who were no longer a threat, represent the new enemy- Rome. It's not surprising to me that some would later extend this to Catholics due to the importance of Rome in Catholicism, and because of the partially real and partially imagined grievances the Jews have with Christians.

However, the more Biblical (and, coincidentally, historical) connection would be to the Jews themselves.

The theme of the younger brother taking over the inheritance of the older is common in the Old Testament. It happened with Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, Ephraim and Manasseh, and, in a more fuzzy way, with David and his many older brothers, and perhaps other things like the Davidic dynasty vs. Saul or later Solomon not being the oldest son of David. One might even draw a parallel with the Maccabees, who though descendants of Aaron were not of the family of priests that were supposed to be High Priests, yet for those of us who accept 1 and 2 Maccabees as Biblical they seem to have been chosen by God to lead the Israelites.

Though perhaps not 100% politically correct today, the New Testament connection seems to be with the people of the Old Covenant and the people of the New Covenant. The Firstborn, the people of the promise, for the most part (though obviously not all) reject salvation in Christ while many Gentiles accept it. Thus Esau would represent the Jews, the seemingly "legitimate" inheritors of the promises of God, while Jacob, the younger and at first less likable person, ends up inheriting the covenant and being the truly chosen one ("I loved Jacob but hated Esau") and thus represents the Christians (though Esau still becomes a great nation because of his descent from Abraham, we might point out, which we could connect to the Jews still remaining an important people and heirs to the less important covenant, and we might even take as a hopeful precedent the reconciliation of Jacob and Esau later in their lives).

[/quote]

What to say? You always are ready for assert this kind of awesome answers. You have shown me a city even I was just satisfied with a village.


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