Does Mary "grant" graces?


#1

We sing the great Polish hymn “Beloved Mother” frequently at my parish. One line troubles me:

“grant us the graces to be loyal to you”

Is this theologically correct? Most petitions to Mary simply ask for her prayers. Is attributing the power to grant grace ''over the line"? If so, why is the Church so lackadaisical about such practices? I have been challenged on this by Protestant friends and have not had a good answer.


#2

On the surface it does look theologically incorrect. You might look at the Polish etymology, to see if its just the way the word translates over to English.


#3

I just did a quick search on the internet for a Polish to English dictionary. The line in Polish is: " Zmilujsie zmiluj niech" and the electronic dictionary cannot translate the phrase over to English.

That leads me to believe it is simply the way the words translate over. It’s probably theologically correct in Polish, and not in English.


#4

[quote=cfobrien]We sing the great Polish hymn “Beloved Mother” frequently at my parish. One line troubles me:

“grant us the graces to be loyal to you”

Is this theologically correct? Most petitions to Mary simply ask for her prayers. Is attributing the power to grant grace ''over the line"? If so, why is the Church so lackadaisical about such practices? I have been challenged on this by Protestant friends and have not had a good answer.
[/quote]

It’s quite correct, cf, since all that comes to us does come through Mary; the Incarnation is key to understanding this. Just as the Son was sent through Mary, now all graces (the life of God bestowed on man) likewise come through her as the Church is the continuation of the Incarnation.

It is because she is Mother of God that she is on a completely different plane from all the rest of the Saints. As Mother of a Divine Person she is in the Hypostatic order, i.e., on the order of having a person to Person relationship that is above the order of all subsequent graces to humans. Thus she is on a plane of intimacy with the Divine Persons simply not accessible to any or all of the other Saints. She has a personal influence with God the Son by reason of being His Mother, and with the Father Who ordained that for her in ordaining that His Son become Man, and to the Holy Spirit Who becomes her Spouse in bringing about the Incarnation of the Son from her flesh; these person to Person relationships no one else can have. She is on a plane above all other vocations (that’s why she is Queen of Apostles and Mother of Priests). This is why the Church teaches that we are to giver her hyperdulia in honoring her, i.e, beyond the Saints, though below God (Latria).

This is why God willed that she cooperate for all (universally) at the same time and in union with her Son’s accomplishing our redemption.


#5

She doesn’t grant them but dispenses that which has been given to her.

All we receive comes from God through Mary.

God alone grants.


#6

[quote=Fergal]She doesn’t grant them but dispenses that which has been given to her.

All we receive comes from God through Mary.

God alone grants.
[/quote]

Ah, good point, Fergal! Thanks. :thumbsup:


#7

to grant means to give something that is requested.

If God gives a word of prophecy to a prophet and someone asks the prophet for the word of prophecy from the Lord and the prophet gives him the word of prophecy from the Lord, then the prophet grants the word of prophecy from the Lord to him who asked.

In the same way, if God gives graces to Mary to dispense and someone asks her for those graces from the Lord and Mary gives him those graces from the Lord, Mary grants those graces from the Lord to him who asked.


#8

"grant us the graces to be loyal to you"
Is this theologically correct?

good question.

Fergal Writes…

She doesn’t grant them but dispenses that which has been given to her.

True. But not all dispensable graces have been given to Mary.

All we receive comes from God through Mary.

I fear this is a mistaken notion of the Holy Mothers mediation. **All **we receive does not necessarily come through Mary.

God alone grants

Very True.

This concept of Our Heavenly Mother Limits Gods action, **where is the evidence in Sacred Tradition **that all we receive comes from through Mary.

Maybe this next post would help, I hope, I am just going to re post it here next, but it is from a topic in apologetics— “Mary for salvation?” post # 115


#9

From thread called… Mary for Salvation.

Maternal Mediation of Mary.

Mary acts in being able to obtain the disposition for us to convert back to her son such that he can receive the grace he offers from his sacred heart.
This is different from the priestly mediation of Christ, to which Mary is always subordinate. It does not complement the mediation of Christ, nor is it an extension of it.

Mary must not be represented in a vertical hierarchy, as a second mediator who interposes herself, between Christ and us, to extend the mediation of Christ between Humans and God the Father. (Lumen Gentium 60= “Marys Function in no way obscures the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows it power”)

Christ is the Head and is in direct contact with ALL the members of his Body, and the Virgin is the first member of that body, she does not however separate the others from Christ. We cannot suppose that the divine graces, flowing from Christ, (John7.38) MUST come through Mary. All Grace flows directly from the fullness of grace possessed by Christ. This is called capital Grace, that is the grace from the Head, who gives it to his members.

Thus the image of the neck previously mentioned in these forums -is absurd, and confusing! She is the 1st member of Church, but in the mystical body she is not the neck, which separates the head from other mediators!

Christ sanctifies us, through his priestly mediation, by virtue of his humanity and divinity.

Mary does not act on the same level as Christ, who brings salvation and gives us grace. (Lumen Gentium 62- No Creature could ever be counted along with the incarnate Word.)

Quote:

How to Understand the Virgin Mary. Jacques Bur. 1994
Nihil obstat = Fr A Cowan
Imprimatur = Monsignor Ralph Brown VG.


#10

Does God give the graces to Mary so that Mary can decide herself who to give them to, as she sees fit?

or

Does our mother Plead our case before the Throne of Grace on our behalf, when we seek her intercession, and then God himself Decides!

maybe this question is irrelevant in a timeless situation like Heaven.but I have to ask it anyhow:)


#11

[quote=blackfish152]Does God give the graces to Mary so that Mary can decide herself who to give them to, as she sees fit?

or

Does our mother Plead our case before the Throne of Grace on our behalf, when we seek her intercession, and then God himself Decides!

maybe this question is irrelevant in a timeless situation like Heaven.but I have to ask it anyhow:)
[/quote]

Whereas a prophet may choose not to prophesy, as in the case of Jonah or as Jeremiah mentioned in today’s first reading at Mass (Jeremiah 20:7-9), Mary doesn’t have such freedom in heaven to disobey God. In heaven, Mary’s will is perfectly attuned to God’s will. So, if God has given graces to Mary to grant to those who ask her, Mary will grant those graces. If Mary enjoys any freedom with respect to whom she dispenses the graces of God, it would certainly all be done in accord with God’s will.


#12

Whereas a prophet may choose not to prophesy, as in the case of Jonah or as Jeremiah mentioned in today’s first reading at Mass (Jeremiah 20:7-9),

Indeed Jerimiah, did say “I will not speak in his name any more” as was read at Mass, before deciding that he could no longer “bear” not to proclaim Gods Word.

however

Mary doesn’t have such freedom in heaven to disobey God.

I believe I have read that Free will is not lost in heaven. so this statement goes against with St Thomas Aquinas etc…

In heaven, Mary’s will is perfectly attuned to God’s will.

Yes, By her free will she is perfectly attuned to divine will, she Loves God by her own Choice, not as some kind of robot without freewill.

So, if God has given graces to Mary to grant to those who ask her, Mary will grant those graces.

it would certainly all be done in accord with God’s will.

Yes I can see what you are getting at, that Mary will do what the father wants anyway, so it dosent matter if she makes the final call on who to give the graces, which have been given to her, because, her will is perfectly attunded to the Fathers will anyway.


#13

[quote=cfobrien]We sing the great Polish hymn “Beloved Mother” frequently at my parish. One line troubles me:

“grant us the graces to be loyal to you”

Is this theologically correct? Most petitions to Mary simply ask for her prayers. Is attributing the power to grant grace ''over the line"? If so, why is the Church so lackadaisical about such practices? I have been challenged on this by Protestant friends and have not had a good answer.
[/quote]

The Church seems to have a blind spot when it comes to any thing Marian - hardly anything qualifies as an abuse.

Even the title of “Mary, Virgin Priest” was allowed for a good while - as were statues of her in priestly vestments.

The trouble, is, IMO, that human ingenuity can justify anything, or almost anything: unless something is really blatant, like the idea that we receive the Body of Mary in the Eucharist, it seems to be tolerated. Otherwise, Mary can be given almost every title of Christ, except “Creator”. She’s even been called “Saviouress”, “Mediatrix”, “Co-Redemptrix”, “divine”, “omnipotent”. In an atmosphere of this sort, where the distinctions between the Divine Persons & Mary are rather hazy, it’s not surprising that the Mariavites came into being; or that Maximilian Kolbe came up with the horrible statement that “Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”. Which Father - let us ignore the Bible, and pretend it does not exist - ever said anything like that ? It is downright blasphemy and heresy, utterly anti-Christian. It sounds like something said by one of the mediaeval dualist heresies.

See this thread: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=28444 and search with the word quasi

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6547

"In other writings the Polish friar attempts to describe Mary’s deep, intimate union with the Third Person of the Trinity from her conception, by calling Mary the “quasi-incarnation” of the Holy Spirit.13 He is careful to stress that this union “is not of the same order as the hypostatic union linking the human and divine natures in Christ”;14 for he repeated often that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in Mary in the same way in which the Eternal Word is present in the sacred humanity of Jesus.15 The notion of the Holy Spirit becoming “in some manner” (quasi) incarnate in Mary may at first seem to be an extreme idea. However, it is somewhat analogous to the statement by St. Louis de Montfort, that "God the Son wishes to form himself, and in a manner of speaking, become incarnate every day in his members through his dear Mother."16 Along the same lines, St. Paul says: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal. 2:20)."
Does this mean that Our Lord was quasi-incarnate in St. Paul ? :rolleyes:

de Montfort is attributing to Mary that which is the work of the Holy Spirit. Defending one error by another is not convincing

With such ideas around, which have no basis on the NT, where the emphasis is on Christ, and not at all on his mother - whom St. Paul does not even name - it is no wonder that Mary has been treated as a sort of Gnostic entity, like Sophia the Divine Wisdom.

Thought about Mary seems to have a constant tendency to exaggeration, nonsense, and blasphemy. :frowning: It’s unastonishing that many Protestants are not very favourably impressed by the claims of the CC - to say the least, when they come across these things. ##


#14

[quote=Gottle of Geer] Maximilian Kolbe came up with the horrible statement that “Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”.
[/quote]

Kolbe offers us a profound insight here as to why God ordains that the Holy Spirit operates through the Blessed Virgin, by using the analogy of the Incarnation in the work of redemption. God could have ordained that our redemption be effected without his Son becoming incarnate and dying on the Cross. But because all our knowledge comes through the senses, God was better able to reveal to us the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and his merciful love for us through the Incarnation — by the fact that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). In an analogous manner, God is better able to reveal to us the Third Person of the Trinity, God-who-is-Love, and to reveal how this Person distributes the graces merited by Christ, through a concrete, sensible sign — a human person; and that person is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

While having taken care to stress that the union between the Holy Spirit and Mary “is not of the same order as the hypostatic union linking the human and divine natures in Christ,” Kolbe had written, in formula style, in Latin: "Filius incarnatus est: Jesus Christus. Spiritus Sanctus quasi incarnatus est: Immaculata. "(The Son is incarnate: Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is quasi incarnate: the Immaculata.) In his book, Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit, Fr. H. M. Manteau-Bonamy, O.P., offers a thoughtful commentary on Kolbe’s use of the term, “quasi incarnate”:

Bold words indeed! But, faced with the words Mary spoke at Lourdes: “I AM the Immaculate Conception,” there is really nothing else to say, unless we wish to suppose that Mary was then giving herself only a symbolic name. Moreover, these bold words are those of an expert theologian; he uses the necessary restriction, “quasi incarnates,” which forces the mind of the believer to open itself up to the mystery, while not disturbing its faith. He constantly maintains that the Son alone was truly made man, not the Holy Spirit. The task of the theologian is not to demonstrate the ineffable, but to try to express it if he can in terms, which will provoke the heart of the believer to go beyond what the mind can understand. The Holy Spirit is “quasi” (in some manner) incarnate, without being really and strictly incarnate; for Mary the Immaculata is, as such, taken up by the Holy Spirit in all her being, as a woman and a mother.

Although Mary’s words to Bernadette at Lourdes, being private revelation, would not hold much persuasive force for the non-Catholic, Fr. Manteau-Bonamy’s comments about the meaning of “quasi incarnate” may help one to understand better why God wills that the Holy Spirit operate through his spouse, the Blessed Virgin.

We can even say this profound truth — that Mary is the “living human image/ icon” (or, using Kolbe’s term, the “quasi incarnation”) of the Holy Spirit — is revealed in Scripture in Mary’s own words: “My soul doth magnify the Lord” (Luke 1:46). Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord; specifically, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, because she is (to use Kolbe’s description) the created Immaculate Conception, formed through the power of the Uncreated Immaculate Conception. As a creature she is the most perfect expression by the Creator of created, fruitful love, intended by him to reflect or image the divine Person who is Uncreated Love, the Fruit of the love flowing eternally between the Father and the Son.

Dwight P. Campbell

Full article at: catholicculture.net/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4270


#15

God made two great lights: a greater one to rule the day and lesser one to rule the night. -Gen 1:16

Reflection. The moon standing between the sun and the earth, transmits to the earth whatever light it recieves from the sun.
In like manner, Mary stands between God and human beings and pours His grace upon us. -St. Bonaventure

I read this from a prayer book Mary day by day


#16

I think (please correct me if I am wrong) she dispenses the graces granted by God.

In that sense she grants us what God granted her and only with the end that we give praise to God.

God bless.
Aaron


#17

[quote=blackfish152]Does God give the graces to Mary so that Mary can decide herself who to give them to, as she sees fit?
[/quote]

No. All grace has been entrusted to Mary and she dispenses them to those who ask for them. In the Rue Du Bac apparitions, Our Lady showed her hands with rays of light and of dark coming from them. When St. Catherine asked her what the black rays stood for, Our Lady replied “These are the graces that people forget to ask for.” She also said that graces will be poured out on all those, small, or great, who ask for them with confidence and fervour. Graces will be poured out especially [on tho]se who ask for them."

memorare.com/mary/app1830.html

[font=arial][size=][size=]Rays of light issued forth from rings on her fingers and Catherine was told to commission a medal of what she was seeing. Then, turning the letter “M surmounted by a bar and a cross” underneath which were the hearts of Jesus and Mary all surrounded by the words “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”[/size][/size]
http://www.memorare.com/mary/medals.gif
Messages/Prophecies
November 27: “These (gems on fingers with rays of light) are the symbols of the graces I shed upon those who ask for them. The gems from which rays do not fall are the graces for which souls forget to ask.” [/font]

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordrue.html

[quote=blackfish152] Does our mother Plead our case before the Throne of Grace on our behalf, when we seek her intercession, and then God himself Decides!
[/quote]

Actually, if you read the story of the Apparition of Our Lady in the Rue Du Bac,you will understand.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm


#18

[quote=Fergal]She doesn’t grant them but dispenses that which has been given to her.

All we receive comes from God through Mary.

God alone grants.
[/quote]

Wouldn’t the title “Mediatrix of All Grace” apply here?


#19

[quote=Jon_Jay2]Wouldn’t the title “Mediatrix of All Grace” apply here?
[/quote]

Spot on! :thumbsup:


#20

[quote=Mickey]Although Mary’s words to Bernadette at Lourdes, being private revelation, would not hold much persuasive force for the non-Catholic, Fr. Manteau-Bonamy’s comments about the meaning of “quasi incarnate” may help one to understand better why God wills that the Holy Spirit operate through his spouse, the Blessed Virgin.
[/quote]

All beautifully stated, Dwight. Thank you. :thumbsup: (Fr. Manteau-Bonamy’s book is a treasure.)


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