Does Proverbs 8 teach that Jesus is God - JW Debate


#1

:ehh:
I am in the middle of a spirited debate with a Jehovah’s Witness. He has stated that Proverbs 8 shows that Jesus was created since the Church Fathers called Jesus “Wisdom”. He says that Proverbs 8 is irrefutable in showing that Jeus was created. I don’t believe this, but I can’t figure out a way to refute it. :confused:

Any ideas would be helpful :thumbsup:

I have been fighting the heresy of Neo-Arianism for quite awhile now, but this has got me stumped. :shrug:


#2

Wisdom in Proverbs is characterized as “she”:

Prov.9:1: Wisdom has built her house,
she has set up her seven pillars.

Does this also mean that Jesus was a woman?

The wisdom of Proverbs is knowledge of God but not God himself, which is why it is characterized in the feminine instead of the masculine.


#3

So Jesus was a woman then? That would seem to be the slam-dunk response.

And why does this JW get to use the Catholic Church Fathers to argue against Catholic teaching? Have him point out where one of the ECFs who calls Jesus Wisdom, also states that Jesus was created.


#4

Sirach 1:4 says that Wisdom was created from eternity. Something to ponder.


#5

I would explain that Proverbs 8 refers to the human nature of Jesus (which was created) and not to His Divine nature which was uncreated. It also shows how from all eternity God knew/determined He would unite Himself to human flesh.

8:22-23 The LORD created (“possessed” in Douay) me at the beginning of His work, the first of His acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

Read the whole psalm realizing it is God revealing His Second Person (Wisdom).

Nita


#6

I love that verse Della. My mental translation: Jesus has built His Church and has given to her seven Sacraments.
Also, has given to her the Holy Spirit with His seven gifts.

Nita


#7

Will give the same response here as the one I gave on your post on Sacred Scripture:

I would explain that Proverbs 8 refers to the human nature of Jesus (which was created) and not to His Divine nature which was uncreated. It also shows how from all eternity God knew/determined He would unite Himself to human flesh.

8:22-23 The LORD created (“possessed” in Douay) me at the beginning of His work, the first of His acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

Read the whole psalm realizing it is God revealing His Second Person (Wisdom).

Nita


#8

So your JW friend thinks that there was a time when God was without wisdom? Silly idea. God is all-wise, always was and always will be.


#9

Excellent point Todd Easton. 1 Cor 1:24 says Christ is the wisdom of God.

Either Watchtower teaching is not the truth and Jesus is Almighty God, or Watchtower does teach the truth and and Almighty God was without wisdom until He created Jesus…, or was it Michael the Archangel…


#10

Wisdom can help us recognize trickery and false teaching and lead us to the Catholic Church.


#11

In the first line of Genesis, the first word is “Breshiyth", consisting of a prepositional prefix -B], meaning "In_", leading into the word "Reshiyth”, meaning “BEGINNING” or “CHIEF”. In the Gospel of John, the opening words are “En ARKHE”, the Greek equivalent to “Bre`shiyth”. The Church Fathers passed down the Tradition that the opening word of Genesis indicated JESUS HIMSELF as the FOUNDATION of the creation of all things.

The Apostle Paul shows signs of having seen it this way, using the Greek word “ARKHE” more than once for CHRIST, saying all things were created not only by HIM and for HIM, but existing in HIM. There are similar comments made about GOD in general as well, and not of the PERSON of JESUS CHRIST alone.

The Proverbs of Solomon speak of a MYSTERIOUS FIGURE called “WISDOM”, or, in Hebrew, “CHAKHMAH”, symbolized as a WOMAN. This is not sexual talk, but partly a play on words, since the word “Chakhmah” possesses the kind of form used for most feminine words, so that the pronouns that substitute it in Hebrew must be the same as would accord with reference to a woman. Originally, there being two forms of substantives, the one that carried an additional ending was assigned to feminine versions of things otherwise neutral, and the shorter form remained neutral with a duel role of masculinity. Many things
remained according with either form, though they were neither male nor female.

This non-sexual “femininity” is the spiritual pattern merely
reflected in the distinction of sexes in our humanity. Male and
female of our race are equal, both being equally human, but one man (a neutral term that remains the same in doubling as a masculine term when paired with the feminine specification) was the first - and because the humanity of the next was derived out of the first, the special derivational word construction was accorded her, reflecting that only in contrast to her was Adam no longer neutral. The person of Eve, however, came into existence directly from the creating act of GOD as Adam’s did, so that an already distinct person recieved a duplication (even an extension) of anothers nature. And so CHAKHMAH is the PERSON
of the TRINITY that derived not HIS PERSON from the FATHER, but, as Paul says, having set aside what HE had possessed from Eternity as the FATHER’s EQUAL, adopted a Role of bearing the same Divine Nature as a SON carrying a duplication of HIS FATHER’s Nature, being in this way, as John’s Gospel calls HIM, the LOGOS (WORD/REASON/EXPRESSION) of GOD. In the Proverbs, in which we see mention of CHRIST as “CHAKHMAH”, that is, “WISDOM”, we are dealing with this PERSON as
expressing to other than GOD the Wisdom essential to GOD that was beforehand concealed from all other Witnesses but GOD, within the TRINITY of GOD’s PERSONS, eternally before anything was created. (Thus WISDOM has no beginning, but HIS Role in expressing HIMSELF to a creation that had never before existed was a newly expressed foundation of all creation, even as a careful reading of the Proverbs passage indicates.) As the SON, the SON-Ship JESUS bears is derived from the FATHER, as the humanity of Eve is derived from Adam. The man Adam, called in Hebrew an Iysh (Person), is named thus in a non-sexual manner. The same word can desribe any person in Hebrew, if the sexual distinction owned by a human person is not being brought out for relevancy's sake; but, in showing that the nature of the second of our race was derived from the first, Eve is called anIsshah, adding to `Iysh the suffix -ah to express the one proceding from the other.

Therefore, try to understand the ancient use of “feminine” forms for
non-sexual topics, and the use of “CHAKHMAH”, with like ending to that of Isshah will make sense to you. In HIS SON-Ship did GOD, as the SON of GOD, express in HIMSELF the WISDOM GOD is by Nature from Eternity, known only to GOD. It is as this WISDOM EXPRESSED (the LOGOS) that GOD is first made known to newly created Witnesses, and bears what is described in derivational ("feminine") terms. In this Role is HE the RESHIYTH/ARKHE, the BEGINNING in WHICH all things
recieve their existence.


#12

Yes, I believe that Proverbs 8 does teach that Jesus is God. :slight_smile:


#13

HE, as GOD, can fully express GOD the UNBEGOTTEN, and thus, in hypostatically uniting HIS PRE-EXISTENT PERSON to a virginally concieved Human Nature, represents both GOD and mankind perfectly as the MEDIATOR between GOD and man. JESUS said no one can come to the FATHER but by HIM; that whoever has seen HIM has seen the FATHER; and that, before the beginning of the existence of the kosmos, HE and the FATHER shared one Glory equally (reflecting the same reality Paul later writes of about JESUS subsisting in the Very Form of GOD before emptying HIMSELF and taking on the Form of a SERVANT, and being found in the Fashion of a MAN).

Also as a parting thought: the word ELOHIM is used for the PERSONS of the TRINITY (SHELOSHAH) from the first. It is a "masculine" plural, neither singular as to PERSON, nor displaying the derived form of the SON's Expression of the FATHER. However, the singular form, which is mainly used in the Aramaic Scriptures, has an ending like CHAKHMAH, typifying the derived form from the FATHER that only ONE PERSON (the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as the SON) would assume. The literary linguistic evidence shows "ELOAH" to derive from “`ELOHIM”, and not vice versa. And note the apparent change in gender form from plural to singular, even as JESUS derives HIS SON-Ship from the FATHER, in alone expressing the whole ETERNAL TRINITY in the form of a MAN.


#14

According to the silly argumants of jw’s, would they also extend their misunderstanding of Proverbs to say that GOD had no Wisdom before HE was feared? It does say that the Fear of YAHWEH is the beginning of Wisdom (bre`shiyth Chakhmah).


#15

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