I was discussing with my dad (a southern baptist) who thought that saints had been “decanonized” at certain point. I informed him this is impossible because canonization is the church recognizing that someone is for certain in heaven and if he’s in heaven he can’t be then come out and be in Hell. He then said that if Satan can go in heaven and possibly take souls back with him then it is possible. He then quotes Job 1:6-12 (and I seen others use 2 chronicles 18:18-21) as proof that Satan has access to heaven. Can someone debunk this? Once we’re in heaven we can’t be taken away can we? And are there bible passages that show once we’re in heaven we’re there forever? And how to combat the idea that Satan can be in heaven? Please someone help.
Satan for a certain amount of time did have access to heaven. You are probably thinking of the traditional story of Satan’s fall from heaven. As Catholic’s we don’t need to believe in the traditional story. I do think Satan first rebelled against God in Eden when he tempted Adam and Eve, but that God still allowed him to be apart of the heavenly host in heaven. In fact the book of Job supports this view because it basically says he was still apart of the “sons of God.” (The sons of God are the angels) Job 2:1, and Job 1:6 support this. I still think he was evil and causing people to sin and accusing people. I don’t think he officially fell from heaven until just before or just after Christ’s birth. If you look at the events of the Revelation 12 and put them in chronological order, they imply that Satan did not lead a huge war and fall from heaven until around the birth of Christ. A lot of my views too are the original Jewish view of Satan before Christianity came around, Judaism did not have a concept of “fallen angels” but did view that there were angels in heaven who were evil. As Catholic’s we are required to believe Satan is an evil being and actually exist and that he is not a personification for evil, you just don’t have to believe in the super traditional story of Satan’s fall from heaven. Most of the traditional story comes from the book “Paradise Lost” which of course was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and was largely the imagination of the author that people actually started connecting to the Bible.
Neither of those accounts have anything to do with snatching souls out of heaven.
Job is a fable, a morality story. It is not a historical account.
In 2 Chronicles 18, the good king Jehoshaphat of Judah is making inquiry of the prophet Micaiah. Micaiah is telling him and the corrupt king Ahab of Israel that Ahab’s corrupt prophets are liars and brown-nosers. Ahab is so corrupt that God is permitting him to hear only what he wants to hear, so that he may eventually feel the full impact of his sinfulness.
The account in 2 Chronicles 18 is akin to the account of the Pharaoh in Exodus 4:21 when the Lord says “I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.”
That is absolutely NOT true at all. It is a completely false and incorrect idea. Banish it from your mind immediately, will you?
The vile, filthy scumbag does not need access to heaven. He is having a field day down here. I imagine he must be grinning like a Cheshire cat. Business is booming…
If by taking souls from Heaven you mean gain their souls to his cause, i would say no, because there is no more temptation or weakness in Heaven.
If we are there, we are already clean from sin and chose God.
That he might have access to heaven could mean God allowing things, but don’t forget he is already judged.
And don’t forget this, too
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.…
Exactly. Many misconceptions happen when people try to interpret scripture on their own, without understanding some of the common terminology that can often be used in different ways, such as “the sons of God”. This is what I posted about the quotes from Job, in the previous thread.
Let’s look at this in context.
[quote]"Job 1:  Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them.  And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.  And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil?  And Satan answering, said: Doth Job fear God in vain?  Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth?
 But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesseth thee not to thy face.  Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."
Does this text say anything about them being in Heaven, at all? No, it doesn’t. When we go into a church to pray and worship God, do we consider ourselves to be ‘standing in front of the Lord’? Yes, we do. That’s what’s being talked about in this passage. The phrase, ‘The sons of God’, usually refers to the angels, or to the holy men of God (faithful church goers). It’s completely feasible that this was a scene where holy men, including Job, had gathered together (on earth) to worship God, like in a synagogue or maybe someone’s house. It’s not hard to imagine that Satan would also be present, to instigate doubts or other sinful thoughts to enter their minds while they pray. That’s why God asks him where he came from, or why he’s there. Then, he says that he wants permission to test Job’s faith in God, because up to that point he wasn’t allowed to do so; and God says, yes.
This is why interpreting the Bible by ourselves, can be so dangerous. It’s too easy for us to misunderstand it’s real meaning, and be completely confused by it.
The Church has not and can not decanonize saints.
Satan does NOT have access to Heaven and cannot take souls from Heaven.
I think that what your father may have heard of was a few years back the Church “adjusted” it’s Calendar of Saints, and in so doing removed some (I think St. Christopher was one).
The secular media who reported the story had no clue as to the difference between the Church’s calendar of Saints (list of whose feast day is on what date) and its Canon of Saints (official list of those we know are in heaven).
Think about it, there are only 365 days a year (OK 366 if a leap year) and there are thousands of saints. So ever few decades/centuries the Church adjusts which Saints have official feasts on what days. For example, today is the feast of Blessed Junipero Sierra and St. Oliver Plunket. In a few hundred years it may be that other Saints have become more relevant and their feasts would be celebrated today. That would not mean St. Oliver Plunket got kicked out of heaven, just off the calendar.
Satan is the most unclean there is. He can’t get close to heaven… [Revelation 21:27](“https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 21:27&version=RSVCE”)
Satan conversed with Jesus when Jesus was walking this earth, but that was all.
Apart from the fact that Job is very probably not historical, the fact that Satan takes part to the “reunion” with other angels doesn’t mean he is in Heaven. He “came before the Lord” as we may say I am with you when the other is on the other side of the World. So he may already be in Hell (and in fact he is already judged) still he is permitted from God to do things. That is taking part of the “council” before God. Being in Hell doesn’t mean God loses authority on the people of Hell (including the devil), but they lose God.
No, we can’t be taken away.
And are there bible passages that show once we’re in heaven we’re there forever? And how to combat the idea that Satan can be in heaven? Please someone help.
*Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." *
(If they could be “taken away”, then it wouldn’t be eternal.)