Does Satan help refute OSAS?


#1

I was thinking the other day while driving and bored and this popped into my head. If I’m totally off-base please be kind but you are best people I can think of to run this thought by because I’ll know you’ll be honest.

I was thinking about OSAS. Lucifer is a fallen angel, cast into hell because of his rebellion against God.
Now I understand this all happened before Jesus came to earth, but the mind of God doesn’t change - correct?

If so, since Lucifer was cast into hell and ‘lost heaven’ because of his choice, does this help demonstrate the mind of God and that yes, people can reject their salvation. Just as Lucifer made his choice to reject God even though he was once a follower, we too can choose to reject God after we have ‘been saved’. As God honors Lucifer’s decision, he will also honor ours.

What do you think? Could this be helpful?


#2

This is an interesting question. I am no theologian, but I’ll try to add some thoughts that may help.

I have heard that angels are all unique species. They are pure spirit. An angel’s intellect spans all time and space (from the time of it’s creation). Once an angel comes to a realization, it’s intellect cannot change that conclusion. When Lucifer, and many other angels, decided not to serve they were eternally cut off from God (this was their decision). Likewise, the Holy Angels of God decided to eternally serve God.

Humans, like angels, have free will, but during our mortal lives, we can change our mind. This is because our bodies are tied to our spirits. This was set into motion by the Fall of Adam and Eve.

In my opinion, there are just too many scripture passages that refute OSAS to get into a deep theological discussion about Satan. However, it is always good to ponder these issues.


#3

[quote=Elzee]I was thinking the other day while driving and bored and this popped into my head. If I’m totally off-base please be kind but you are best people I can think of to run this thought by because I’ll know you’ll be honest.

I was thinking about OSAS. Lucifer is a fallen angel, cast into hell because of his rebellion against God.
Now I understand this all happened before Jesus came to earth, but the mind of God doesn’t change - correct?

If so, since Lucifer was cast into hell and ‘lost heaven’ because of his choice, does this help demonstrate the mind of God and that yes, people can reject their salvation. Just as Lucifer made his choice to reject God even though he was once a follower, we too can choose to reject God after we have ‘been saved’. As God honors Lucifer’s decision, he will also honor ours.

What do you think? Could this be helpful?
[/quote]

What an interesting approach to the question! LA already tackled the angels, their nature and their fall from grace, so I won’t go over that ground again.

I was struck, as if for the first time (must be catching!), that the very term “after we have been saved” might be the real clue to your question. OSAS isn’t workable because no one is “saved” until he has died and assuredly found himself on the right side of the Pearly Gates. Those of us alive on earth are in the process of obtaining our salvation. What we all are is redeemed, not saved. We can have a moral certainty of our salvation as we live out our baptismal vows, but no one can claim to be truly saved who is still alive on this earth because there is always the possibility that he might turn his back on God and fall from grace.


#4

Does Satan help refute OSAS?

Why would Satan help refute OSAS when he has labored so hard to get Protestants to believe this pernicious heresy? :wink:


#5

[quote=Matt16_18]Why would Satan help refute OSAS when he has labored so hard to get Protestants to believe this pernicious heresy? :wink:
[/quote]

Matt,

Yeah, the great deciever certainly has something to do with the heresy. Unfortunately for him, the truth about “him” robs the teaching of credibility as do the scriptures.


#6

[quote=Pax] … the great deciever certainly has something to do with the heresy. Unfortunately for him, the truth about “him” robs the teaching of credibility as do the scriptures.
[/quote]

You have that right. But the serpent has always been subtle, and his first deceit was to get Adam and Eve to believe that they could be disobedient to God and not die the first death. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, and he is still spreading the deceit that man can be disobedient to God and not suffer the second death.

OSAS is the original lie repackaged for the gullible.


#7

[quote=Matt16_18]You have that right. But the serpent has always been subtle, and his first deceit was to get Adam and Eve to believe that they could be disobedient to God and not die the first death. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, and he is still spreading the deceit that man can be disobedient to God and not suffer the second death.

OSAS is the original lie repackaged for the gullible.
[/quote]

good point


#8

[quote=Matt16_18] Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, and he is still spreading the deceit that man can be disobedient to God and not suffer the second death.

OSAS is the original lie repackaged for the gullible.
[/quote]

Wow - excellent point. Thank you!


#9

I would say that it would not to those who believe in OSAS. I have been having conversations with a friend from work for over a year about the differences between a Calvinist view and Catholicism. Under this form of OSAS, they believe that all mankind after the Fall is born into sin and total depravity. We cannot do good without God’s help and grace and He chooses only some to give it to.

To me this would suggest that Adam and Eve could do good from the beginning since they were already in God’s grace. They had something that could be lost. We do not have that original grace to lose. We are already in sin. Since Satan and the fallen angels were not created in sin/total depravity, they had something to lose.

Now, personally, I think this line of reasoning still has holes you could drive a truck through. It seems to me that if once could reject God when you were born in grace, then you could when you were not. You would in fact be more likely to do so. Also, if God only chooses some for Heaven and they have no choice but to believe and be counted amongst the elect (because grace is irresistable), then why not keep the Fall from happening and the angels from rebelling? Why is grace only irresistable to fallen mankind and not those born in grace?

Of course there are likely to be many ways those who believe in OSAS would deny that Satan disproves OSAS. Not all OSAS believers believe the same details about it.


#10

Excellent point! :thumbsup:


#11

Please spell out “OSAS” for those of us that do not know what the acronym stands for. Thanks.


#12

[quote=coyote]Please spell out “OSAS” for those of us that do not know what the acronym stands for. Thanks.
[/quote]

Sorry… That stands for Once Saved Always Saved. It is a common doctrine among many Protestant groups. It means that once you have “made a decision for Christ” or through some other means, you are saved and cannot lose your salvation no matter what you do.


#13

[quote=Elzee]I was thinking the other day while driving and bored and this popped into my head. If I’m totally off-base please be kind but you are best people I can think of to run this thought by because I’ll know you’ll be honest.

I was thinking about OSAS. Lucifer is a fallen angel, cast into hell because of his rebellion against God.
Now I understand this all happened before Jesus came to earth, but the mind of God doesn’t change - correct?

If so, since Lucifer was cast into hell and ‘lost heaven’ because of his choice, does this help demonstrate the mind of God and that yes, people can reject their salvation. Just as Lucifer made his choice to reject God even though he was once a follower, we too can choose to reject God after we have ‘been saved’. As God honors Lucifer’s decision, he will also honor ours.

What do you think? Could this be helpful?
[/quote]

There is no analogy, because satan would be more in the position of those who were never redeemed in the first place.

OSAS relates to those who are being saved, not to those who have neither accepted the Gospel nor been justified. ##


#14

[quote=Della] OSAS isn’t workable because no one is “saved” until he has died and assuredly found himself on the right side of the Pearly Gates. Those of us alive on earth are in the process of obtaining our salvation. What we all are is redeemed, not saved. We can have a moral certainty of our salvation as we live out our baptismal vows, but no one can claim to be truly saved who is still alive on this earth because there is always the possibility that he might turn his back on God and fall from grace.
[/quote]

Ditto for me, I agree with Della.


#15

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