Does sin = rejection of Jesus Christ = Hell


#1

looking for Church teaching or something from the Church fathers that sin is a rejection of Christ. I dont know how to word this so maybe I can borrow it from our fathers. But im trying to convey to my dad that sin IS a rejection of Christ. And therefore sins can get us to hell.


#2

Mortal sin = Hell.

From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin…

He who is a member of the Catholic Church and does not put her teaching into practice is a dead member, and hence will not be saved; for towards the salvation of an adult not only Baptism and faith are required, but, furthermore, works in keeping with faith.


#3

Matt. 7:21-23 all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds. This seems pretty straight forward to me.

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#4

1 John 2:4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC #398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned Him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.
(in speaking of the first sin committed by Adam and Eve)

CCC #1472 …Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “etermal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. …

CCC #1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight. (Ps 51:4) Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become “like gods,” knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus “love of oneself even to contempt of God.” (St. Aug, De civ. Dei 14,28) In this proud self-exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

CCC #1855 Mortal sin …; it turns man away from God …by preferring an inferior good to Him.

Nita


#5

I think this verse just about says it all.


#6

What many people don’t know, is that sin isn’t just a rejection of God, which it certainly is, however sin is moreover a lack of something, that being divine grace. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did reject God by their disobedience, but they then lacked divine grace. They still posessed the image of likeness of God (being they were made in His image) but they lacked the grace to be saved.
God is in heaven and heaven is without sin (Rev 21:27). Everyone is born (save Mary) with original sin (Rom 5:12) which we inhereted from Adam and Eve. And the wages (consequences) of sin is death (Rom 8:28). What we need is sanctifying grace which restores our relationship with God and allows us to get into heaven.


#7

I really like this one chapter of Romans, you’ve probably seen me quote it a few times before but again i’ll tell you… “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the Law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Chirst unto all, and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by his grace, through the redemptionthat is in Jesus Christ: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins , that are past, through the forbearance of God. To declare I say, at this time his righteousness: That he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? Of Works? Nay: but by the Law of faith. Therefore we conclude, that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” - Romans 3 :19-31

What this is saying is that if you have faith in Christ then you are justified and made spotless as you may call it. The Ten Commandments are no longer required for you to follow, but they are nevertheless still in effect for those that CHOOSE to follow it, and if you CHOOSE to follow the Ten Commandments then you are damned eternally and expected to follow them, as can be noted in verse 19. This again, does not mean the Law is not in effect for everyone, you are not expected to follow it if you have faith in Christ, because you are justified and made “spotless” thus meaning you have fulfilled God’s expectations of being perfect, and you are therefore safe from any type of Curse of the Law which was assigned to the people before Christ.


#8

Actually I take this to mean that God now gives us the Grace to have Freedom from the Law. For even the Jews are not Justified by the Law alone. Works of the Law will not get you to heaven.

but Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it.

From the same book.

(Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

Im asking you are those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness Spotless?

(Rom 2:13) also says, “for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.” The law encompasses Jewish rites and rituals, as well as the ten commandments. Paul is saying that the commandments still count. The commandments have to be observed.

Jesus said I came to fulfill the law not to abolish the law. (Lk 10:25-37).

(Mt 19:16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.”

Also why do you say I dont have to keep the comandment but Jesus says I do, to enter eternal life?

I must add that fulfillment has to do with the proper understanding of the laws. Jesus wants us to understand the commandments. Those who abide in them abide in Christ. And when we abide in him our hearts are conformed to his and we have no desire to break the laws. This is true freedom of the law.

This excerpt is from Christopher West’s Book, Theology of the body for beginners, pg 40.

"Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel doesn’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see Cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experience this change of heart, we experience freedom from the law (Rom 7, Gal 5), not freedom to break the law; freedom to fulfill it. Here’s an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrates the point. Assuming you do not, then you don’t need that commandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Why? Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it. Before original sin, the human heart conformed to Gods heart. That is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to His will, and the Church is there to help.

When we allow Christ into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burden or imposition to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” don’t throw away the law, surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.”

So I have to say what Paul stated wrath and furry to those who disobey seems to me some sins just might get you to hell.

All sin is not equal. In 1 Jn 5:16-17, it says, “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin; I do not say that one should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

How do you explain this? If YOU are spotless then acording to you, you have no deadly sins. But yet if someone does not have faith in Christ they are already dead. They cant sin unto death.

How do you reconcile this verse. Clearly if You comit serious enough sin that sin will leed you to hell.

So please clearify What you mean by spotless

Also I would like to know what other Catholics think of this spotless deal. Am I right in what I am saying is it thelogicaly correct?


#9

Depends on the sin, whether it is a mortal sin or not. If not a mortal sin then you can go to confession and ask God for forgiveness. As long as you acknoledge your sin and repent, you shall be saved.


#10

Certainly sins can be great …All sins are deadly, for the wages of sin is death, of course, however… deadly I would no longer think so, Christ died for our sins and as you have said, he DID fulfill the Law, nowhere did I say he came to abolish it… certainly that is fact he did not abolish it, but back to sins… Since he died for our sins it can be related that all sins are the same in the eyes of God IN A SENSE… That being… any sin, great or minor will keep you from God, but faith JUSTIFIES you or makes you blameless, perhaps that is better than spotless… You can not be blamed for your sins because Christ died for them and thus made way for our salvation… thus giving sin a no-effect stance on you, I believe.

“Actually I take this to mean that God now gives us the Grace to have Freedom from the Law. For even the Jews are not Justified by the Law alone. Works of the Law will not get you to heaven.”

Yes, you are given freedom from the law, however are not expected to follow it… Yes, if you try to follow the Law you will be cursed and expected to follow it… I back this up by quoting…

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”—Galatians 3:13

But you also get from Romans 3:19 “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

The key phrase here is UNDER the law, you see some people can still be under that curse of the law, but if you follow the belief that you do not need the Law to get into heaven and put your life in Christ’s hands you are saved- if you try to follow those commandments you become subject to whatever the law says, and are then guilty in the eyes of God, thus would make sins increasingly deadly.


#11

There are sins not unto death 1 Jn 5:16-17
"I do not say that one should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

\ Since he died for our sins it can be related that all sins are the same in the eyes of God IN A SENSE…

yes in a sense that all sin is a disapointment to God but clearly tjhere are sins unto death and sins not unto death. stealing a candy bar and raping and killing a child are not on the same level.

That being… any sin, great or minor will keep you from God, but faith JUSTIFIES you or makes you blameless, perhaps that is better than spotless… You can not be blamed for your sins because Christ died for them and thus made way for our salvation… thus giving sin a **no-effect **stance on you, I believe.

you believe but you could be wrong right? literaly

Do you really think sins have no effect on a Christian. If Im not blamed for my sins than God woundnt punish me at all right. Would you not punish your kids if they did wrong?

Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

Yes, you are given freedom from the law, however are not expected to follow it… Yes, if you try to follow the Law you will be cursed and expected to follow it… I back this up by quoting…

(Mt 19:16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.”

I ask again why do you say I dont have to keep the comandment but Jesus says I do, to enter eternal life?

The key phrase here is UNDER the law, you see some people can still be under that curse of the law, but if you follow the belief that you do not need the Law to get into heaven and put your life in Christ’s hands you are saved- if you try to follow those commandments you become subject to whatever the law says, and are then guilty in the eyes of God, thus would make sins increasingly deadly.

Jesus gives us the grace to follow the commandments, why wouldnt he he expects it of us.


#12

What version of the Bible are you reading? It sounds mutilated…

Matthew 19:16-17… “And behold one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him., Why callest thou me good? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” … That means when you enter into eternal life you will keep the commandments… not if you WISH to enter eternal life… Does that answer the question to your other topic? Other Bibles are mutilated to all heck, and are not based off the original Hebrew, which is why we use the KJV… it won’t lead us off in the wrong direction… Entering into eternal life and then keeping the commandments and keeping the commandments before eternal life are 2 different worlds.

Jesus died to take upon himself all sin, forever and for the last time- the final sacrifice… that means he fulfilled the Commandments FOR US and we AREN’T expected to follow them anymore! It’s useless and can only do us harm to follow the Commandments! That disproves purgatory also, quite blatantly.

Of course, also, I could be wrong, and I am certain I am wrong SOMEWHERE… You know the old verse, let every man be a liar and let God be the truth.


#13

some non Christians take this verse out of context as you except they use this to prove Jesus is not God because only God is good and he is not.

But what Jesus is actually saying is Do you understand what your asking. Do you undertand Im God Im good. He is not "implying that we cant be good or that God does not see us as being good.

If that is the case than how do you interprit all the verses that talk aobut the good and rightous?

but if **thou wilt **enter into life, keep the commandments." … That means when you enter into eternal life you will keep the commandments… not if you WISH to enter eternal life… Does that answer the question to your other topic?

no it doesnt because that is not what the verse is saying ast all.

“thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments” and he answers the question “What must I do to enter life” he does not say your already there your keeping the commandments.

Other Bibles are mutilated to all heck, and are not based off the original Hebrew, which is why we use the KJV… it won’t lead us off in the wrong direction.

on a side note NO KJV as of today is based off the original Hebrew. The KJV you have in your home is a translation of a translation of a translation OF the King James bible It could be up to even 17 times translated over.

It was a pope and Im not sure what Pope that said a Catholic bible that is going to use todays words(Translation) has to be translated from the original Hebrew/Greek. When you get translation of a translation you get mistakes.

Jesus died to take upon himself all sin, forever and for the last time- the final sacrifice…

agreed but you seem to think there is no punishment for our sin. none at all.

that means he fulfilled the Commandments FOR US and we AREN’T expected to follow them anymore! It’s useless and can only do us harm to follow the Commandments! That disproves purgatory also, quite blatantly.

Ok how does anything your said diss prove purgatory? Do you even know what purgatory is?

(Rom 2:13) also says, “for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.”

(Mt 3:10) “…every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

(Mt 16:27) “For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Fathers glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.”

Of course, also, I could be wrong, and I am certain I am wrong SOMEWHERE… You know the old verse, let every man be a liar and let God be the truth.

no disrespect I think you got this wrong.


#14

Sometimes I feel you guys are unable to make connections… no offense there :wink:

Well, many have accused me of hypocrisy, I have only laughed- where it is you being the hypocrites, accusing me of using verses of the bible for my own “demonic desires”, again I laughed… I have noticed 3 things here, Misinterpretation, the stretching of truth to fit a certain lie, and bigotry… However I suppose bigotry should come naturally when challenged with religious debates… Nevertheless I will continue here…

I’ll start from the bottom up, easier for me… You quoted Matthew about trees bearing fruit… that has no relevance whatsoever with what we were talking about… we’re not about to become farmers my friend…

What I said disproves purgatory because Jesus died for our sins… I will say this with an adamant stance… IF PURGATORY EXISTS… The death of Jesus was a COMPLETE waste of time and COMPLETELY unnecessary! The Final Sacrifice was nothing if purgatory exists! Sacrifices were made to clear the slate to say… of your sins, you agree do you not? Well, if Jesus died as the FINAL -SACRIFICE- then our sins were cleaned at end, and for eternity, and we are therefore good with God, but then he assigned to us a new command with our slates cleaned, that we accept the fact Jesus died for us… That will bring us salvation and nothing can stand in the way between Jesus and man, nothing I tell you… So … if we are then cleared of our sins and blameless in the sight of God… we should go straight to heaven… and if by some reason we aren’t seen blameless… We obviously haven’t turned to Christ… and should be sent to hell… I don’t believe in an in-between, and if purgatory exists, I’d rather die in a lake of fire, my God would not do such a thing to me- the death of Christ should have been more, but God did not make it so, if there were other gods in this world, wouldn’t there deaths be a powerful experience on earth? Certainly! But God didn’t make a deal of it, he simply cleared our slates, forever, and set us free from sin.

You also harass my version of the KJV… what makes your Bibles better? You say mine has been translated 17+ times, but how can that be when I have an original? It clearly says 1611 Edition… :slight_smile:


#15

You are blameless but yet you still are diciplined for those sins you comit.

God disciplines us even though he has washed us from our sins. Once a person becomes a Christian does not mean that there are no further punishments for sins. “Because Jesus blood is good enough for you.” (Heb 12:5-11) verse 6 “for whom the Lord loves he disciplines.” Do you not think that we will be disciplined for unrepentant sins after we die? 1 Cor 3:11-15 seems to suggest that we do.

you clearly dont know what our teaching on purgatory is. To bad you could not stick around longer we could have explained what we really teach.


#16

You are making unfounded assumptions.
Jesus died to free us from original sin, so that we could go to heaven. So Jesus reconciled God and man.
At baptism we receive the grace he merited by His death so that all our sins removed and the punishment to do them.

But, if we commit mortal sin, we lose that grace that saves us.
That is why Jesus said, "if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments"
That is why St. Paul wrote to the Galatians who all had faith 5:19 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
So he had to warn them at least twice that if they did not quit committing these mortal sins and repent, they would NOT enter heaven when they died.

And even after we commit mortal sins and repent, there is still some temporal punishment for sin. Thus we have purgatory.

Or if we don’t repent of some venial sins, there is temporal punishment for sin. Thus we must be purified before entering heaven, thus purgatory.

When David killed Uriah and committed adultery, God forgave him, yet, he still had temporal punishment due to the sins, which would be the death of his son.

We all suffer under the punishment of Adams sin, which is death. Jesus suffered and died and took away the eternal punishment, which is separation from God. Jesus paid the eternal penalty. BUT, there still remains the temporal punishment. That is why all men still must die. If Jesus took away all temporal punishment, then no Christians would die.


#17

As for your discussion with your Dad. Mortal sin is a knowing rejection of the will of God in a grave (serious) matter. Venial sins are small matters, but the practice of them can weaken our resolve to amend our lives and avoid sin, so they too, if given free rein in our lives can ultimately lead us into Mortal sin. Mortal sin requires true contrition, confession, and absolution, while venial sins are confessed by a sincere Act of Contrition (or the Confiteor) and by the penitential rite at Mass and the reception of the Eucharist.

No believer who really loves Our Lord will take any sin lightly since that is like mistreating a holy friend, or disrespecting Him.

Like the priest prays at Mass. “In Your mercy keep us free from sin and grant us peace in our day…” How can one have true peace with the consternation of guilt that sins create in our souls?:shrug:

Does this help any?


#18

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Whether man is a sinner by nature or not is immaterial. Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.


#19

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.