Does the host contain both Jesus and Mary?

If Jesus got his humanity from his mother, and the host becomes his body, isn’t the host also the body of his mother, Mary? And for that matter, of every descendant of his back to Adam?

Related to this, is the body of Jesus the actual flesh of him, as in his DNA?

[quote=CyberSaint]If Jesus got his humanity from his mother, and the host becomes his body, isn’t the host also the body of his mother, Mary? And for that matter, of every descendant of his back to Adam?

Related to this, is the body of Jesus the actual flesh of him, as in his DNA?
[/quote]

No and no. Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist is sacramental. We are receiving the risen and glorified Christ not meat or DNA.

[quote=CyberSaint]If Jesus got his humanity from his mother, and the host becomes his body, isn’t the host also the body of his mother, Mary? And for that matter, of every descendant of his back to Adam?

Related to this, is the body of Jesus the actual flesh of him, as in his DNA?
[/quote]

Your body is not the body of your mother. It is your own. While the DNA is very similar, they are entirely distinct entities. So, no, the host does not become Mary at all. Only Christ.

I see. Thanks. One more question- is Jesus’ divinity present also? If so, is it fully present? If so, one can say we receive the Father and the Spirit as well. True?

[quote=CyberSaint]I see. Thanks. One more question- is Jesus’ divinity present also? If so, is it fully present? If so, one can say we receive the Father and the Spirit as well. True?
[/quote]

The Eucharist is union with Jesus, with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit.

Just to clarify. We really do receive the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist, as well as his souls and divinity–the entire Jesus. But we receive him only as a whole person, not as pieces of flesh or drops of blood, and only under the appearances of bread and wine. There is no way that you could detect his DNA, because that his part of His appearances. And we do NOT perceive his appearances–only the appearances of bread and wine.

CyberSaint wrote:

I see. Thanks. One more question- is Jesus’ divinity present also? If so, is it fully present? If so, one can say we receive the Father and the Spirit as well. True?

and

JimG replied:

[font=Verdana]Just to clarify. We really do receive the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist, as well as his souls and divinity–the entire Jesus. But we receive him only as a whole person, not as pieces of flesh or drops of blood, and only under the appearances of bread and wine. There is no way that you could detect his DNA, because that his part of His appearances. And we do NOT perceive his appearances–only the appearances of bread and wine.

So, just to explain a little further:
Yes! In receiving Our Lord, Jesus Christ, His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - we DO receive the Father and the Holy Spirit, for the Divinity is the undivided Divinity of GOD - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For, Jesus said: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30. [/font]

Thanks everyone!

[quote=CyberSaint]Related to this, is the body of Jesus the actual flesh of him, as in his DNA?
[/quote]

Yes, though we do not know whether resurrected bodies have DNA. It is the actual true flesh and blood of Jesus Christ the divine person, but how that true body of Jesus manifests to us in the Eucharist differs from how it would normally manifest to us. So the true body of Jesus in the Eucharist, is hidden under a veil, the veil of the appearances of bread and wine. It would be similiar to a body that is hidden by clothing, except here, not even a microscope can unveil what is underneath the clothing. On occasion, God does unveil it a little in Eucharistic Miracles.

Mary is actually present in the Eucharist and in the Mass as taught by Pope John Paul II:

[quote=John Paul II]“ Ave verum Corpus natum de Maria Virgine!”
“ Hail, true Body born of the Virgin Mary! ”

On the feast of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ, our greatful thanks is raised to the Father, Who has given us the Divine Word, the living Bread come down from heaven, and our thanks is joyfully raised to the Virgin, Who offered the Lord his innocent Flesh and precious Blood which we receive at the altar. “Ave verum Corpus”: true Body, truely conceived through the work of the Holy Spirit, borne in the womb with ineffable love (Preface II of Advent), born for us of the Virgin Mary: “Natum de Maria Virgine”.

That divine Body and Blood, which after the consecration is present on the altar, is offered to the Father, and becomes Communion of love for everyone, by consolidating us in the unity of the Spirit in order to found the Church, preserves its maternal origin from Mary. She prepared the Body and Blood before offering them to the Word as a gift from the whole human family that he might be clothed in them in becoming our Redeemer, High Priest and Victim.
At the root of the Eucharist, therefore, there is the virginal and maternal life of Mary, her overflowing experience of God, her journey of faith and love, which through the work of the Holy Spirit made her flesh a temple and her heart an altar: because she conceived not according to nature, but through faith, with a free and a conscious act: an act of obedience. And if the Body that we eat and the Blood that we drink is the inestimable gift of the Risen Lord to us travellers, it still has in itself, as fragrant Bread, the taste and aroma of the Virgin Mother.

“Vere passum, immolatum in Cruce pro homine”. That Body truely suffered and was immolated on the Cross for man.

Born of the Virgin to be a pure, holy and immaculate oblation. Christ offered on the Cross the one perfect Sacrifice which every Mass in an unbloody manner, renews and makes present. In that one Sacrifice, Mary, the first redeemed, the Mother of the Church, had and active part. She stood near the Crucified, suffering deeply with her Firstborn; with a motherly heart she associated herself with his Sacrifice; with love she consented to his immolation (cf. “Lumen Gentium”, 58; “Marialis Cultus”, 20): she offered him and she offered herself to the Father. Every Eucharist is a memorial of that Sacrifice and that Passover that restored life to the world; every Mass puts us in intimate communion with her, the Mother, whose sacrifice “becomes present” just as the Sacrifice of her Son “becomes present” at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest (cf. Discourse at the Celebration of the Word, 2 June 1983, n° 2).
[/quote]

madredelleucaristia.it/eng/angelus.htm

[quote=tuopaolo]Yes, though we do not know whether resurrected bodies have DNA. It is the actual true flesh and blood of Jesus Christ the divine person, but how that true body of Jesus manifests to us in the Eucharist differs from how it would normally manifest to us. So the true body of Jesus in the Eucharist, is hidden under a veil, the veil of the appearances of bread and wine. It would be similiar to a body that is hidden by clothing, except here, not even a microscope can unveil what is underneath the clothing. On occasion, God does unveil it a little in Eucharistic Miracles.

Mary is actually present in the Eucharist and in the Mass as taught by Pope John Paul II:

madredelleucaristia.it/eng/angelus.htm
[/quote]

It does not say the presence of Mary is in the Eucharist and if it did it would be blasphemous. In the Eucharist we are united with Jesus, with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit. We are not united with Mary in the Eucharist. It is the Holy Trinity we receive and worship. However much we venerate Mary ( and I really do) we do not worship her.

Maybe it would be acceptable to say that Mary is present in a spiritual rather than substantial manner in the Eucharist?

After all, Mass is participation in the heavenly liturgy and Mary is certainly in heaven.

Thistle Amen

drforjc to expand that to include not only Mary but all the Saints and angels. Not in the Eucharist but in the Mass all the saved are present

[quote=drforjc]Maybe it would be acceptable to say that Mary is present in a spiritual rather than substantial manner in the Eucharist?

After all, Mass is participation in the heavenly liturgy and Mary is certainly in heaven.
[/quote]

The CCC on the Eucharist is lengthy 1322-1415.
CCC 1358 sums it up:
"We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:

  • thanksgiving and praise to the Father
  • the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body
  • the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit".

Mary is not present in the Eucharist.
The only mention of Mary in the CCC on the Eucharist is 1370 which states: “To the offering of Christ are united not only the members here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ”.
We should never say Mary is present in the Eucharist. That is wrong and simply provides ammunition for those who say we worship Mary which of course is also wrong.

“We are not united with Mary in the Eucharist.”

That’s your opinion, but my opinion and John Paul II’s opinion differs.

Having already quoted in full what I believed to be a self-explanatory text, let me proceed highlighy some portions:

[quote=John Paul II]every Mass puts us in intimate communion with her, the Mother, whose sacrifice “becomes present” just as the Sacrifice of her Son “becomes present” at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest
[/quote]

“intimate communion” means being united with her. That’s what “intimate communion” is. Also this is not simply being in the presence of the communion of saints, but a case of her own sacrifice becoming “present” just as the sacrifice of Jesus becomes present at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest – it is thus at this moment of consecration that Mary and her sacrifice becomes present in a special way. What is Mary’s sacrifice? It is both her Son and herself for “she offered him and she offered herself to the Father.”

I also do not see what could be more clear than this:

[quote=John Paul II]And if the Body that we eat and the Blood that we drink is the inestimable gift of the Risen Lord to us travellers, it still has in itself, as fragrant Bread, the taste and aroma of the Virgin Mother.
[/quote]

Mary is present not only around the Eucharist, but also “in itself”

When I was quite scrupulous, I once when seeing the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle, prayed to Mary, probably with some prayer of joy or praise. I, being scrupulous, mentioned this in confession because I worried that I was not supposed to pray to Mary in that way as she was not present there, but the priest told me not to worry about that and that indeed Mary is present wherever her Son is present and that if we recognize that, we should not worry about that.

[quote=Sean O L]CyberSaint wrote:

and

JimG replied:

So, just to explain a little further:
Yes! In receiving Our Lord, Jesus Christ, His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - we DO receive the Father and the Holy Spirit, for the Divinity is the undivided Divinity of GOD - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For, Jesus said: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30.
[/quote]

I think this is wrong. We do not recieve the Father when we recieve the Eucharist. Christ is only the incarnate Son, not the entire Trinity. Each person of the Trinity is distinct. When we recieve the Eucharist we recieve the entire Christ - body, blood, soul, and divinity - not the entire Trinity. We do recieve the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.

Tuopaolo,

I sincerely admire you great devotion to Our Lady, and to Our Lord in the Eucharist. In no way do I wish to discourage your great love for them!

But with that said, I feel it is that we clarify your position in this thread, and hopefully work towards a mutual understanding between you and Thistle. This is because I also recognize Thistle’s unswerving loyalty to Our Lord’s Real Presence, and so perhaps there is a middle ground here.

Tuopaula, I think I understand the basis for your posts, and if you mean that Mary is present in a certain respect but in a way that is markedly different than Our Lord is present then I agree with you.

See Pope John Paul’s encylical Ecclesia De Eucharistia paragraph 57:

Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist. If the Church and the Eucharist are inseparably united, the same ought to be said of Mary and the Eucharist. This is one reason why, since ancient times, the commemoration of Mary has always been part of the Eucharistic celebrations of the Churches of East and West.

Is it possible, however, that you are pushing this concept too far when you seem to indicate that Mary “becomes present” at the consecration?

[quote=tuopaolo]this is not simply being in the presence of the communion of saints, but a case of her own sacrifice becoming “present” just as the sacrifice of Jesus becomes present at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest – it is thus at this moment of consecration that Mary and her sacrifice becomes present in a special way.

[/quote]

Look at the Pope’s actual statement in the Angelus message:
"every Mass puts us in intimate communion with her, the Mother, whose sacrifice “becomes present” just as the Sacrifice of her Son “becomes present” at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest.

The Pope was speaking of the sacrfice of Christ becoming present (which he significantly puts in quotation marks) at the consecration – apart from the Real Presence of Christ ACTUALLY substantially becoming present (also at the consecration.)

Why does the sacrifice of Christ “become present” only at and subsequently to the consecration? Because we cannot offer Him as a living sacrfice until He is present. The Pope is just restating the doctrine of the unbloody Holy Sacrfiice of the Mass.

In God’s providential grace and through Mary’s cooperation, it so happens that this Christ whom we offer was given His Holy Body by Mary. Further, she also offered Him to the Father and had a share in His sufferings. She continues to unite with us at Mass in this way.

Look at that quote from Ecclesia De Eucharistia again – the Church is also “inseperably united” with the Eucharist, but the Church doesnt become substantially present in some way in the Eucharist at the moment of consecration. When I say Amen to receiving the Body of Christ, I am not receiving us in His mystical Body (although I am being incorporated into His Mystical Body in a way through the reception of His Substantial Real Presence.)

[continued]

[continued from previous post]
The whole point of this is that we cannot say that

[quote=tuopaolo]Mary is present not only around the Eucharist, but also “in itself”
[/quote]

because that would seem to indicate that in the sacramental sign there are *two persons present. ****You surely didn’t mean that did you? *We have to be extremely cautious and avoid either removing OR adding anything to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

[quote=tuopaolo]When I was quite scrupulous, I once when seeing the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle, prayed to Mary, probably with some prayer of joy or praise. I, being scrupulous, mentioned this in confession because I worried that I was not supposed to pray to Mary in that way as she was not present there, but the priest told me not to worry about that and that indeed Mary is present wherever her Son is present and that if we recognize that, we should not worry about that.
[/quote]

Tuopaolo, perhaps the priest was trying to pastor you, and was not stating doctrine. Mary is not present wherever Christ is present. We can see this because she was not present in the Garden after the Ressurection, nor on the road to Emmaus, etc. True, she is with Christ now bodily in Heaven, but she is not sacramentally present here on earth like Christ can be in the Eucharist!

She is present to us, perhaps even in a superabundant way, as the saints our present to us – but not “in” the Eucharist the way Christ is “in” the Eucharist. And that was the original posters question.

Furthermore, I wish to bring to you attention that the website you linked to (madredelleucaristia.it/eng/angelus.htm) is one of extremely dubious fidelity to the magesterium. Please see catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=35 for a critique which points out that the seer’s spiritual director, Don Claudio Gatti, is a suspended priest who claims to have been ordained Bishop in 1999 by Christ Himself.

Please use caution with that website.

Hopefully I’ve pointed out what I beleive to be somewhat of an inadvertant overstatment by you, in your zeal to honor Our Lady and Our Lord.

I hope that you can clarify any misconceptions I may have with your postion, and I look forward to continuing a discusion with you on this.

Please let me know what you think, and help me to understand what you are getting at better.

Thanks!
God Bless,
VC

[quote=jimmy]We do not recieve the Father when we recieve the Eucharist. Christ is only the incarnate Son, not the entire Trinity. Each person of the Trinity is distinct. When we recieve the Eucharist we recieve the entire Christ - body, blood, soul, and divinity - not the entire Trinity.
[/quote]

Jimmy,

I understand what you are getting at, I think, but I just want to point out that you are right that each person of the Trinity is distinct, but they share the same nature. Because of this, the “divinity” of one – which is a description of God’s nature, i.e. Divine Nature – is always one with the divinity of the other. In fact, they are ONE nature.

This is why when you read St. Thomas translated into english and he is talking about receiving the Whole Christ, (Body Blood, Soul, and Divinity) you often see the word “Godhead” in place of Divinity.

It is true that we receive Christ’s Body by virtue of the Sacramental Sign of the bread, but we also receive His Blood concomitantly (along with) His Body (since they are inseperably united now in Heaven). Similarly we can receive Christ’s Blood under the Sacramental Sign of the wine, but we also receive Christs Body concomitantly for the same reason. In both species we receive Christ’s SOUL concomitantly (not under a sacramental sign) because being FULLY HUMAN (and alive) His Body/Blood is united with his soul. Furthermore we recieve His Divinity concomitantly because by virtue of the HYPOSTATIC UNION his Divinity is joined in His Person with His Human Nature.

Since His Divine Nature is the same Nature as The Father and the Holy Spirit, we can say that we also receive concomitantly the Father and The Holy Spirit.

A much more simple (but no less mysterious) way of saying this is that we recive CHRIST in the Eucharist and CHRIST IS GOD, and GOD IS FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT, one God.

What do you think?
Does that make sense?

Goid Bless,
VC

I wish to bring to you attention that the website you linked to

The same text is present on other websites such as this one

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Homiletic/07-97/mary.html

This is where I found the teaching. The other website I just found from google with the full text.

I understand the basis for your posts, and if you mean that Mary is present in a certain respect but in a way that is markedly different than Our Lord is present then I agree

I would agree with that. The Eucharist is a mystery so exactly how things are present in the Eucharist cannot be comprehended.

It’s like how you’re arguing with jimmy about whether we receive the Father and Holy Spirit in the Eucharist. I believe we do. The Father and Holy Spirit are not present in the exact same way as the Son is present, but they are still present. Likewise, Mary is present too, but not in the exact same way as the Son is present and also not in the exact same way that the Father and Holy Spirit are present. Since we don’t even comprehend exactly how the Son is present, we can hardly comprehend how Mary is present! :smiley:

I also heard from someone (a lay person), that all of heaven was present in the Eucharist. I don’t know what that means but I believe it is true because it sounds just so beautiful :slight_smile:

III. The Mass-the memorial of his sacrifice and hers

Now that we have fleshed out to some extent the Pope’s remarks on Mary’s active role in the redemption in his notable Corpus Christi Angelus address of 5 June 1983, let us return again to the conclusion which he draws in that text.

Every Eucharist is a memorial of that Sacrifice and that Passover that restored life to the world; every Mass puts us in intimate communion with her, the Mother, whose sacrifice “becomes present” just as the Sacrifice of her Son “becomes present” at the words of consecration of the bread and wine pronounced by the priest (cf. Discourse at the Celebration of the Word, 1 June 1983, n. 2 [ORE 788:1]).18

Mary’s sacrifice becomes present in the Mass just as her Son’s sacrifice becomes present. This is true above all precisely because Jesus is Mary’s sacrifice; she offered him in sacrifice on Calvary to the Father for us. Secondly, this is also true because Mary’s sacrifice of herself is indissolubly united to the sacrifice of Jesus. Certainly Mary’s sacrifice is always ancillary and consequent to his, but at the same time it is also inextricably united to his sacrifice of himself. Hence the Pope used his Message of 15 August 1996 to the 19th International Marian Congress19 in order to underscore Mary’s presence in the sacrifice of Calvary and her presence in the sacrifice of the Mass:

Every Holy Mass makes present in an unbloody manner that unique and perfect sacrifice, offered by Christ on the tree of the Cross, in which Mary participated, joined in spirit with her suffering Son, lovingly consenting to his sacrifice and offering her own sorrow to the Father (cf. Lumen Gentium, n. 58). Therefore when we celebrate the Eucharist, the memorial of Christ’s passover, the memory of his Mother’s suffering is also made alive and present, this Mother who, as an unsurpassable model, teaches the faithful to unite themselves more intimately to the sacrifice of her Son, the one Redeemer.20

Developing the theme of Mary as offerer of Jesus in his book, The Hidden Manna, Monsignor James T. O’Connor describes her as the “chief offerer of the Eucharist after the High Priest himself”:

"Suffering with her Son as he died on the Cross, she cooperated in a totally singular way by her obedience, faith, hope, and ardent charity in restoring supernatural life to souls."21 And because the bond between Son and Mother is “intimate and indissoluble”, as the Council teaches, she remains with him-and because of him and after him-the chief offerer of that sacrifice that is made present in our earthly Eucharist. As it is the Lord who offers and is offered in every Eucharist, and who, in and with himself, offers the sacrifice of praise of his entire Body, so, in him and with him, Mary offers and is offered in each Eucharistic celebration in that utterly unique way that reflects her role in the redemption her Son achieved for her and for all of us.

So it’s not just “superabundant”; it is “utterly unique”

The last part says:

Her [Mary’s] relationship with our Eucharistic celebrations is never sufficiently explained by her role in giving Flesh to Christ, nor to the exemplary aspect of her faith and devotion, nor even to her role as offered and offering in and with her Son. She must be seen, as well, as exercising a continuing role-or causality, if we would introduce the technical word-in all that concerns the ongoing marriage of the Word and humanity.

This reminds me of Cana.

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Homiletic/07-97/mary.html

Tuopaolo,

Thank you for you informative post.

I admire your devotion to Our Lady of the Eucharist. May I recommend the book Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament by St. Julian Eymard? I think you will enjoy it. :thumbsup:

I read the article by Msgr. Calkins, and I am familiar with and have Msgr. O’Connor’s bok The Hidden Manna, which Msgr. Calkins quotes from.

I am still a bit troubled that you seem to be indicating that Our Lady is somehow SACRAMENTALLY present in the** Eucharist**, and not as is indicated in the article and in the quote from Msgr. O’Connor present in the Eucharistic Celebration.

Do you see what I am getting at?

Please read the article you posted with an eye towards the distinction between Mary’s role and presence in the Eucharistic sacrifice and her presence “in” the Eucharist qua sacramental sign.

The Church has always taught and does teach that Christ is present substantially, really, and completely in the Eucharist. I cannot believe that either Msgr. Calkins or Msgr. O’Connor would ever imply that Mary has anything approaching a substantial presence in the Eucharist. That would be at odds with the fact that the Eucharist is Christ! Just as there can be no bread or wine present, Mary cannot be present.

What do you think? This is a very important topic. While I in no way wish to diminish Mary’s role, we cannot rewrite sacramental theology in such an incautious way. The Consecrated Host is not the body of Mary just as I am not the body of my earthly mother.

Even though the Eucharist is a mystery, it is not a muddle. We can rationally speak of this mystery, and adore.

God Bless,
VC

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