Not sure where to post this, but thought I might get some great responses here. Could anyone help me with the argument that the Pope considers himself God. My anti-Catholic “adversary” has posted several quotes “proving” said claim. The current claim I am working on is, Popes apology LA Times, December 12th 1984., in which JPII allegedly tells people to come to him rather than to God. I cannot find this article or quote, is it real?
It’s not real - it’s a bunch of baloney created by anti-Catholics years ago.
Since your “adversary” made this claim, the ball is in his court to provide you with actual proof that the LA Times printed this article way back when.
Don’t stress & don’t let them get under your skin:
The Pope never said such a thing - cause think about it…!!
If he did, I bet you he would upset millions & millions of Catholics…
Bottom line is that it never happened.
That’s not true. Just the like the previous poster said, if the Pope ACTUALLY did say something like that… or even something close to that, there would be MILLIONS of Catholics who would be very very upset.
It is just like all the other stuff “Catholics worship Mary and Saints” and stuff like that. I find it is best to ignore those kind of things.
This is so obviously garbage, that I’m surprised that anyone would seriouly look for this quote or article. Just tell your adversary that he’ll have to come up with something that at least has a chance of sounding valid.
The sad part of this story is that here is a person who claims to have been raised RC. He offered several similar quotations from several sources. None of them are real. I located and pointed out a specific example which he could readily check for himself and he refused. It is much easier, in my opinion, to condemn the RC church with lies than to seek out the Truth. I am convinced that his arguments are simply “cut and paste” jobs from anti-Catholic websites because he seems either unwilling or unable to do the simplest research to confirm his sources. He simply does not want to know the truth. He needs our prayers. God Bless.
This is anti-Catholic propaganda repeated again and again by various anti-Catholic websites. Saying it over and over does not make it true.
The actual article is not freely available, but see this wiki.
True, Servant of servants. and the jealousy it creates is very disturbing.
Pray for them, be better than that. All the glory is Gods.
It sounds like he’s either trying to justify his own lack of faith in the Church, or, he wants to believe that it’s not the true church so he can do as he pleases and feel less ‘guilty’ about it. You might want to remind him that God knows exactly what he’s doing, and He will judge him on what he already knows is the truth, whether he admits it to others or not.
I have found to simply ignore such ignorant comments. Some people who leave the Church seem to have this need to convince themselves they are doing the right thing by tearing down the Catholic Church. To go back and forth with a true anti Catholic is useless.
Instead simply state the truth, so others who are simply seeking the truth would know fact from fiction.
Well stated, Karen. In this instance, however, he approached me and I felt compelled to defend the Truth. It wasn’t difficult as all of the sources he has provided have absolutely no connection with the claims he is making. All I had to do is ask him to read the actual documents he cites before bringing them to me. I have not heard back since this morning.
I agree definately that you have to state the facts, otherwise someone either a non catholic (not anti) or a Catholic weak in faith may actually believe these lies.
I was refering to going back and forth with one of these anti-catholic fanatics found mainly on certain “Christian” forums. I innocently thought I could bring the Truth of The RCC to them, and I got banned for telling one of the mods who frequents the boards the truth concerning a teaching, she called me a liar, deleted my post and banned me…:banghead:.and would you believe she claims she’s “4Him”
I have had the same experience countless times. Discussions I have had with those who “don’t hate Catholics but simply love Jesus,” remain civil only as long as I don’t point out the errors they proclaim. They tend to get defensive and nasty shortly thereafter. Very frustrating.:shrug:
One such person wanted to start an e-mail debate to try and convert me to her Protestant religion (Baptist). In answer to her very first e-mail, I made it very clear that she was welcome to send me as many of these e-mails as she wanted … with the understanding that for every single e-mail she sent me, I would say a Rosary for her conversion to the Catholic Faith. I would remind her of this understanding whenever I answered her e-mail.
She gave me the opportunity to say two or three Rosaries for her before she finally grew frustrated with my e-mailed explanations of how a Catholic could have a personal relationship with Christ. Seems I didn’t fit her stereotyped notions of what Catholics believe.
It’s a spiritual battle.
The Rosary is the weapon.
Oh my goodness! That hits the nail on the head. When faced with an informed Catholic, many non-Catholics are at a loss because we don’t fit into the stereotype they have formed about us. On the other hand, what a sad commentary on the state of Catholic faithful that we have allowed the stereotype to become so prevalent.
Never let yourself be pinned against the wall. It is up to him find the article not to you. Prepare yourself for all the lies that are invented like in the early christian years when they said that the christian would eat babies in their meals…
With some guys, you cannot win, you find 1000 arguments and they will give you 1001 arguments just saying the contrary of what you say. It is eary arguing like that.
You have to show him what type of ffallacies he is using otherwise he will be discussing till the end of times.
E-mail to a pastor on an anti-Catholic website:
I read Baptist vs. Roman Catholic Beliefs. I am a conservative Anglican convert (I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church.) However, I am very familiar with Catholic doctrine. You have seriously misrepresented Catholicism in your comparison. Please review the following quotes from The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Catholics do not worship icons or statutes. Veneration does not equal “worship.”
1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented. Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1192.htm
Catholics do not believe in “salvation by works.”
1067 “The wonderful works of God among the people of the Old Testament were but a prelude to the work of Christ the Lord in redeeming mankind and giving perfect glory to God. He accomplished this work principally by the Paschal mystery of his blessed Passion, Resurrection from the dead, and glorious Ascension, whereby ‘dying he destroyed our death, rising he restored our life.’ For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth 'the wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.”’
For this reason, the Church celebrates in the liturgy above all the Paschal mystery by which Christ accomplished the work of our salvation. Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1067.htm
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/183.htm
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm
2044 The fidelity of the baptized is a primordial condition for the proclamation of the Gospel and for the Church’s mission in the world. In order that the message of salvation can show the power of its truth and radiance before men, it must be authenticated by the witness of the life of Christians. “The witness of a Christian life and good works done in a supernatural spirit have great power to draw men to the faith and to God.” Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2044.htm
1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: “All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.” Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: “So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1816.htm
Catholics do not “re-sacrifice Christ” during Communion.
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. “As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.”
I’m not sure where you found these false claims regarding the Catholic Church. I would urge you to edit your comparison between Baptists and Roman Catholics to reflect the truth.
May the peace of the Lord be with you and your congregation. +
Baptist pastor’s response to me:
I too have extensively studied Roman Catholic doctrine. And yes, Catholics do indeed worship both statues and icons, as both of us already know. To bow before a statue is worship. Bowing down before a statue = worship (See Exodus 20). You can call it “veneration” if you wish, but it is still bowing down before a stature or idol, which is worship and which is strictly forbidden by God in the Bible
Yes, Roman Catholics do most definitely belief in salvation by works. You either belief in salvation by your own works or you do not. We believe in salvation by works - the work of Christ in the cross. You live in salvation by your own works, which is what we both mean by the term used “salvation by works”. Roman Catholics believe that the seven (Baptist have only two) sacraments input grace. Therefore they believe that their works are necessary for salvation.
Of course Roman Catholics believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ during communion. That is the very definition of the Mass. This is what the wafer and goblet is when the bell is wrung. Ask any priest. Are you that ignorant of basic Roman Catholic doctrine?
So out of three complaints, you are wrong on all three. Sure, many New Evangelicals, all the way back to Billy Graham have been fooled by lying Roman Catholics, but I am not.I am a Fundamentalist Baptist. I believe what the Bible says… That is my authority.
Shame on you for trying to deceive a Baptist preacher! (Christ wrote down your wicked sin in His book and will read it out at the last Judgment. Be afraid. Be very afraid.)
Sadly, as my e-mail exchange in post 16 with a Baptist minister demonstrates, false claims against the Catholic Church continue even when evidence is presented to the contrary.
I sent the Baptist Pastor a second e-mail:
This is a very sad and tragic reply. Where is the love of Christ in what you have said below?
Peace and blessings.
The Baptist Pastor’s response to me:
I was very sad and tragic that I as a minister of the Gospel should have to rebuke you for the wicked sin of trying to seduce a preacher to believe a lie. Your own concience should have stopped you forom doing that sin in the first place. Neverthess, you do not appear to be the least bit ashamed of your wicked sin. This is both sad and trajic.
The love of Christ constrained me to rebuke you for you sin, so that you might have a chance to repent and avoid the judgement before Christ for your sin at the Last Judgment. Have you repented, or will you perhaps continue to try to seduce other preachers in the future? God’s peace and blessing will not come upon you if you do. Be afraid. Be very afraid. May the love of Christ contrain you to repent and so experience God’s peace and blessing for doing so.
There is a pure hatred aimed at Catholics. It makes no sense. I’m not sure if your anti-Catholic “adversary” will listen. Just follow the advice of your Catholic brethren and pray the truth will be revealed.
To answer the OP, yes…yes he does. And you if you keep thinking bad thoughts about him he will strike you down with a lightning bolt.
Alas, I think your email conversation with this pastor shows how many - not all, of course - people with anti-Catholic feelings hold some kind of unholy hatred in their heart towards us that will not yield to the power of truth. Even if the OP found this article, it wouldn’t matter. We all need to pray that Christ’s love will help loosen hatred’s grasp on their hearts.
John Paul II went to confession nearly every day. People who think they are God usually do not feel the need to go to confession. Furthermore, if JPII believed he was God then by going to confession he would be saying God was a sinner which of course is absurd. Finally, if JPII believed he was God then by going to confession we would have to conclude he was asking himself for absolution, another absurdity.