Dear brother Larry.
There is tremendous evidence for the miraculous lives of Krishna, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Was there any specifics in the historical aspects of their lives you wish to explore together?
I agree completely with you.
I should have engaged with the Baha’i-is member in another tone of voice.
I apologized but, now, I think that my apology made things worse because I did not see his side but mine.
I think that all people are saved through Jesus Christ. It is better so be a good Baha’i-is than a bad catholic.
Everyone is drawn to Christ through different ways and it is none of my business to judge people.
I did not intend to: I intended to say that if God exists, He exists either I believe or not. If He does not exist, He does not exist either I believe or not.
But my wording was clumsy and may be offensive.
Next time, I hope to do better…
You are a beautiful soul brother.
May all people think and speak like yourself
Peace be with you, dear brother. You have shown yourself to possess both wisdom and humility. I commend you and give thanks to The Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth. Now I can move on to my primary intention: that of engaging this Baha’i-ist in debate.
The love of Christ be with you always -
Allow me if you will to indulge my curiosity with a question I have been long meaning to ask one of your theology. I realize you are already under debate with others but seeing as how you are quite the veteran I will proceed at length and hope that you will find the time to enlighten me.
So tell me: do you not realize the incredible insult you deliver to us when you turn the one that we proclaim as God himself, Jesus Christ, into nothing more than a simple vessel of (what you might call) the infinate divine? It reasons that one such as yourself, seemingly projecting love, would not wish to insult and offend people by belittling their God. But that is exactly what you do when you take away the sovereignty of Christ. It is not the same as saying, “Jesus is not God” (as many religions say) which is an opinion, i.e. I am right and you are wrong. This sort of attack is acceptable and understandable. But when you say, “yes, Jesus is God and so is Krishna,” you undermine the entire basis of our faith - that Jesus Christ was both The Son of God and The Son of Man. Or to put it plainly: Jesus Christ was fully flesh and at the same time fully God. All points and examples aside (of which are lacking at best) I am telling you now that it is offensive. Go ahead and say all those other entities were gods but please, leave Jesus Christ out of it. Why must he be included in your list of psuedo-gods? Surely not for our benefit. It is clear that you love and respect Jesus Christ in theory, but in truth to love Jesus is to love his body which is The Church. Because you see, Christ established a church and called it his body. We, my Catholic brothers and sisters here, are his literal body manifested spiritually for the purpose of doing good works. Does Krishna have a body made up of billions of followers doing his will on Earth. He does not. And when you say Christ is Krishna it is like saying we are Krishna since we are the body of Jesus Christ. Don’t you see how rude that is. I am not criticizing your faith, far from it, I am only wondering why you cannot see how thoughtless it is to steal away a man’s God and say he is not actually who he says he was or what his disciples told us he was. Plain and simple, our religion is founded on a basic principle that The God of Israel is the one and only god there is and that Jesus Christ was God made flesh. Knowing that principle how can you undermine our faith and at the same time smile in our face and say we are brothers? Either love me or hate me but do not embrace me with your right hand while your left hand puts a knife in my back. This sort of double-mindedness is something I find far more offensive than a worthy adversary objecting from an opposing position. I can see you are kind and thoughtful and bright, however, I think perhaps you do not realize the implications of your statement of universal deity.
I appreciate your patience and look forward to your reply -
Thankyou for sharing your concerns dear Zac
I acknowledge your concern in how we as Baha’is may be perceived here by Catholics, Muslims and adherents of all religions.
If I may ask you to imagine for one moment that Krishna (for example) has revealed the Truth in His Writings and verses. Did Jesus ever say that Krishna was false? Does the Church say that Krishna is false?
Who are we to judge what is Truth and what is false?
We are only human beings, and as human beings we are only left with speculation if it is not explicitly revealed by Jesus.
Let us focus on what aspects of our religions bind us together, rather than separate us, and use those points of unity to work and collaborate together for a better world, where injustice, tyranny and oppression can be eliminated once and for all.
Christianity has striven for 2000 years to remove these injustices, but one must ask after close inspection, why is there still institutional tyrrany, institutional oppression and institutional injustice in the world. I know that humans are far from perfect, but why are the institutions imperfect?
There can be no doubt that with an increasingly complex world, institutional organization of the social order is an imperative, yet how do we combine institutions with a sinful human being? Christianity cannot address this. There is no guidance from Jesus or the Church on these matters (not for want of trying) and this may be the reason why we still live in the world we live in.
So the question is, if you had knowledge of a Truth which Jesus did not categorically deny, would you be considered an “insulter of others” and even a “back-stabber” if you chose to share this Truth with the whole world, with glad-tidings of joy and enthusiasm?
Was Jesus a back-stabber to Judaism? Heaven forbid dear friend, and may God forgive me for even writing such a thing!
My imparting of what I believe to be Truth which is not categorically denied by Jesus, is my inbound duty to our Lord and Creator.
Zac - It may be that you are Judging someone else’s Love to which only God can do
Servants Love for Christ and God and My Love for Christ and God can not be known by you or any other Man.
Only God truly knows our Hearts.
I can truly say I Appreciate your Love for Christ and I applaud you for this Love.
It is the Love of God that Unites and will unite all humanity, are you really suggesting it can be used for Division?
God Bless and Regards Tony
“Modern times are dominated by Satan and will be more so in the future. The conflict with hell cannot be engaged by men, even the most clever. The Immaculata alone has from God the promise of victory over Satan.”
-Saint Maximlian Kolbe
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.” - 1 John 4:18
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I see where your inability to fully understand my concern lies: you do not know Jesus nearly as well as you think you do. I am hard pressed to question whether you even understand the first thing about Jesus or the teaching of his apostles and The Catholic Church. (Of course, this is no surprise as you are not a Christian.) You may know a lot about Krishna and Mohammed and your own prophet but you do not know point one about Jesus as evidenced by your own words. But I do not hold this against you personally neither do I take offense anymore. (I am not offended by the deaf, dumb, or blind and likewise I am not offended by the ignorant.) However, I would suggest that, instead of casually studying this religion and that religion and internalizing only small segments of each, you focus the whole of your spiritual mind on trying to understand Jesus Christ. At least that way you would be able to see, like we see, what makes Jesus so obviously The One True and Everlasting God. Out of respect I will not suppose to teach you anything. I will simply bow out, in good will, and leave you in the hands of God. May he give to each and every man that which he deserves through the grace of Jesus Christ Our Lord, who, having died on a cross to take away the sins of men, has conquered death in the flesh and delivered unto those who believe the promise of everlasting life.
Be well and may God bless you with eyes to see and ears to hear -
I would ask politely that you please not place charge against me where no such charges were made. Never once did i say anything about love whatsoever. Perhaps it is you who is now seeking to find some division, by accusing me of wrongdoing, for the furtherance of your own personal agenda.
Go in peace -
“The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom…” Proverbs 1:7
Could it be that you only posses half of the puzzle? Could it be that by the reconciliation of these seemingly paradoxical truths that one begins to see beyond the veil, that veil which is lifted in Christ Jesus? There are many mysteries in The Faith that are hidden from the eyes of men, so that no man may boast, and only revealed by the unity of The Holy Spirit. I do believe you baha’i-ists are nothing more than dabblers, sampling this faith and that and taking from it that which you like while discarding the rest. But still Jesus Christ died for you and I respect you and serve you as such.
May grace find it’s way to the very depth of your heart -
Oh dear dear brother in Christ, I do so love your approach. What a true and honest statement made by such a wonderful saint. I wonder where are those Baha’i-ists who have gone to martyrdom? Where is the everlasting cloud of witness to their beliefs? You are right in your thinking: Satan is the spearhead of the New Age Movement. Also, I am beginning to study Fr. Hardon and was excited to find he lived in Cleveland. I too lived in Cleveland for a season. And I am moving to Michigan very soon not far from Detroit so I will be able to participate in his yearly remembrance ceremony should God lead me thus. You are a good friend to me to introduce me with this blessed Catholic brother.
May God fill you with all the blessing of his son Jesus -
I wonder where are those Baha’i-ists who have gone to martyrdom?
Many thousands of Baha’is and followers of the Bab (who played a role similar to John the Baptist during Christ’s ministry) have bravely given their lives for their Faith, and continue to do so, just as many Christians have.
All members of the last two elected Baha’i Assemblies of Iran gave their lives for the Faith. They were arrested and then murdered by the Iranian so-called “Islamic” government for religious reasons.
And I feel particularly touched by this young woman’s story:
And I can’t begin to fathom why you think Baha’i is a “new age belief”.
As for labeling Baha’is as followers of Satan - I can only turn to my Lord Jesus Christ and say: You were accused by the Pharisees of being in league with the Devil. I consider it an infinite honor to be tarred with that same brush.
A growing number of cults have developed systems of belief that link elements of Christianity with ideas from non-Christian sources. Theosophy defines itself as “the body of truths which forms the basis of all religions and which cannot be claimed as the exclusive possession of any.” Accordingly, it rejects Christianity’s title to superiority, using methods of “higher criticism” to reduce the Gospels to a set of contradictions. Drawing heavily on Hindu and Buddhist lore, theosophy is a mixture of pantheism, magic, and rationalism. It teaches the transmigration of souls, denies both a personal God and personal immortality, and advocates toleration of all religions as well as atheism.
In the same spirit, the Bahai sect teaches the universal brotherhood of man, the unity of all religions, and world peace. The Bahai faith originated in Persia near the middle of the nineteenth century as an offshoot of Islam. Its doctrines are based on the writings of a man known as Bahaullah, who maintained that God spoke through Zoroaster, Mohammed, Buddha, Moses, and Christ, and who regarded himself as the messias who was to combine and reveal their messages. Bahaullah’s son and successor, called Abdul Baha, established the sect in the United States in the early 1900s and broke ground for the first occidental Bahai temple at Wilmette, Ill. This temple, with its nine sides and doors, all leading into one common center under a magnificent dome, symbolizes the Bahai belief in the unity of all religions.
The Baha’i Faith is not a sect of Islam (any more than Christianity is a sect of Judaism), it is an independent world religion and not similar to New Age beliefs.
Baha’u’llah, translated into English, means “The Glory of God” or “The Glory of the Father”.
I thank you for clarifying my vision regarding the martyrs of Baha’i. I shall in no way dishonor their sacrifice by comparative logic.
So here is a challenge to you since you call Jesus Christ your lord: can a man have more than one lord? Does not the very notion and title of Lord or King (as in Christ meaning king) signify absolute sovereignty and allegiance? And what kingdom do you know in all of history that had more than one king? For, if a king is not the sole head of a kingdom then he ceases to be a king and has become something else all together. Think of how silly you would sound if you were to say things like, “Jesus is my lord and Krishna is my lord and Mohammed is my lord.” You may say, “God is in them all,” but if you do so you are discounting their actual existence. Jesus Christ came in the flesh. He was really upon this Earth in human form, as was Mohammed. So if both men were here in the flesh then they both could not possibly be lord. You see, all these other “prophets” and gurus proclaim to have found the path to God but Jesus Christ claimed not to have found the path but to actually be the path himself. This claim is unique in all the world.
All praise be to Jesus Christ Our Lord -
So here is a challenge to you since you call Jesus Christ your lord: can a man have more than one lord?
In May, the sun (from my home) rises over the oak tree in my back pasture. In December the sun rises over a stand of tulip poplars beside my home.
One Dawning Place is named Jesus. Another is named Baha’u’llah ( “The Glory of the Father”). The sun is the same, the place of its rising changes.
To a fool this may sound wise indeed with your picturesque scene of great oak trees and capitalized Dawning Places, but to me you have answered with nothing more than a smokescreen. It is like the glint of a blade that attracts the eyes attention just as the sword cuts into the flesh. You have reasoned Jesus as an oak tree and Baha’u’llah as a tulip poplar and God as the sun that shines upon them. However, I clearly stated in my challenge that you cannot reason this way because it discounts the actuality of a fleshly lordship. Where on Earth is an oak tree a tulip polar? And where do you find a tulip poplar that is actually an oak tree? I will tell you where? In a man made religion that draws a picture of an oak tree on a wall and underneath that picture writes the words “tulip poplar.” Very clever (and fully deceptive) to a man who knows nothing of trees yet wants knowledge that comes easy. He looks at your picture and next time he walks through the woods with his child he points to an oak tree and says, “look my son, a tulip poplar.” And thus falacy begets falacy as the blind lead the blind. And then, even when this man meets a master arborist, one who has studied oak trees for his entire life, that tells him, “no, my friend, that is not a tulip poplar, it’s an oak tree,” this man will still refute him even though he knows in his heart that his true knowledge of oak trees is lacking, so much so that really all he ever sees are tulip poplars. Oh how difficult it is for this man to ever find truth because, like the old zen master once said as he poured tea until it overflowed, “your cup is already filled with your own mind. To learn anything you must first empty your cup.” I am disappointed in you for not meeting me head on but rather trying to dazzle us with artistic and prosaic enlightenment.
May you always find grace in the heart of our savior -