Doth this defeat Catholicism/Judaism?

In Deuteronomy 28:15-68 it states that if one does not follow all the laws of the Torah then they shall receive various forms of plague and exile and a whole host of unpleasant things. I myself am an Atheist, and am quite well-off, as most people go.

Since I’m not being cursed, doesn’t this mean that God doesn’t exist/isn’t doing his job?

No, it means that you are under the mistaken impression that you are an ancient Israelite. :wink:

B-b-but Jesus said, follow all the old laws, I mean Mark 5:17-20. Surely he’s not mistaken?

No… Mark 5:17-20 is as follows:

Then they began to beg him to leave their district.

As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed pleaded to remain with him.

But he would not permit him but told him instead, “Go home to your family and announce to them all that the Lord in his pity has done for you.”

Then the man went off and began to proclaim in the Decapolis what Jesus had done for him; and all were amazed.

How does this say, “Follow all the old laws”?

This belongs in the Apologetics forum…

Being wealthy is a thing of this world. The question, is are you rich in the ways of God? I think that is the point you are missing. In the New Covenant, plague and exile are akin to separation from God…and will be eternal for those that choose it by not following His Law. You’re financial status is really irrelevant by comparison.

Why do you choose such a fleeting and temporal thing over the eternal happiness for which you were created? God did His job, the choice is now yours…

Joe B

You mean Matthew, but (b-b-but?) your fundamental mistake is that you have no comprehension of what Jesus Christ actually taught or what He did. The bible cannot be understood outside the light of the Church, despite what our Protestant brethren claim.

So what shall it be, atheist friend? A game of “gotcha!” or a sincere discussion?

Oops, I meant Matthew.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Now considering this, shouldn’t it be our duty to punish our neighbors for harvesting twice, or shun them from the community for having one of their testicles crushed or their penis removed(Deut 23:2)?

And to VociMike, can you say I have no comprehension of what he taught? I’ve read the same bible you have. Surely you don’t have a better angle at interpreting it than me? And I would love a sincere discussion. Nothing like a fiery debate to liven up things.

No problem, mistakes happen.

And to VociMike, can you say I have no comprehension of what he taught? I’ve read the same bible you have. Surely you don’t have a better angle at interpreting it than me? And I would love a sincere discussion. Nothing like a fiery debate to liven up things.

I can say that you have an incomplete comprehension. The Catholic faith does not come from the bible, though the bible is an essential component of that faith. The countless number of “bible-only” denominations are all the proof necessary that reading the bible is not a guarantee of fully understanding the bible. That is why Christ founded His Church, to teach the faith without error.

To very briefly answer your question, while one could be saved by the law, the yoke of the law is too much for any person. Thus Christ offers a new yoke, one which is only a light burden, actually attainable by ordinary people.

The Law of Moses was in effect under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was established by Christ, and does not replace, but fulfills the old Law.

The Ten Commandments, with which I’m sure you are familiar, were part of the old Law, but Christ sums them and the Law up by saying the two greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor. If you examine the spirit of the old Law, you will see that it is neatly summed up by those commandments.

Also, in reference to what was said above, Scripture cannot be interpreted correctly without the aid of Christ’s church. To throw those two Biblical passages together is to take them both completely out of context and apply an interpretation that suits the interpreter’s whim.


Are you not in error because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?

Jesus also said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

I don’t know about you, but that let’s me out.

Guess I won’t be crushing any testicles…how about you? :bigyikes:

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Well what of other religions, surely they have just as much claim to validity as Christianity?

Which one of them is based upon the death and resurrection of a man who claimed to be God?

Why don’t you visit the non-christian forum and ask them?

Well, relativism aside, no.

In the Christian faith, we see God’s Son take human form in order to teach the true meaning of God’s word (love God and love your neighbor) and to redeem all of mankind – a supreme act of love. In no other religion do both of these occur.

Furthermore, in Scripture, we see Christ himself giving his authority to the Apostles (namely, Peter) to teach, heal, and forgive sins in his place – thus, the Church founded by God himself. In no other religion does this occur.

Finally, Christ’s coming was prophesied in countless places in the Old Testament (some of which was written hundreds of years before his birth) – right down to the Virgin birth, the place of his origin, his family line, and the way his ministry ultimately played out. In no other religion does this occur.


By that logic, anything that is unique, must be true. So atheism must be true, no? Because in no other religion is there no god/gods.

The bible also says that the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Sometimes good things happen to people, sometimes bad. It’s how we deal with those situations. Also, there are basicl laws God laid down that fit this. For example: premarital sex. If you partake in this, you’ll fine your self with broken heart, a feeling of being betrayed, and even more direct results such as an STI (although not ALL STI’s are a result of this!!!) and even unwanted pregnancy, which can throw a wrench in a lot of plans. There is also things like murder, theft, lying, and gossiping. If you are a liar and gossip, you will find yourself without friends. If you are theif or muderer, you’ll find rather unpleasant things happening to you because of justice.

And no, these results aren’t from God cursing you, it is just a result of these actions. You’ll find a lot of the rules in Toah are like this. Things like not eating pork (at the time, sanitation wasn’t good enough and people got sick a lot) and staying FAR away from lepers (no proper treatment, and you had to if you wanted to stay healthy)

No, by my logic, any religion that is founded by God himself, provided with authority and spiritual guidance by God himself, and had been fortold in a Law given by God himself must be true. Your claim is like saying “If A is B, and C has one vague thing in common with B, then A is B.”


It could simply mean that you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of judgement, and that God is kind enough to give you time to repent while you still can.:slight_smile:

Well that’s not exactly what I’m saying, but that’s besides the point.

Now if the Bible proves God, and God proves the bible, then the argument is circular.

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