Double Popes


#1

Someone asked me about the period of time when there were 2 lines of Popes. I know that I read about this once, but I cannot recall the details. Does anyone have a fresher memory than I do, or maybe a link?


#2

Perhaps you are thinking, or they were talking of the “Great Schism” in the 14th Century. Not the split between the east and west churches, that’s a different great schism.

Here’s basically the jist of it.

Gregory XI was pope, he died in 1378

The French supposedly wanted another French pope, who would move to France and be bishop there. The Italians wouldnt have it that way. So, the conclave elected a man who became Pope Urban VI. He was a valid Pope.

The French “elected their own pope”, who took the name Clement VII. He was an anti-pope.

Urban VI, true pope, died, and the valid conclave validly elected Boniface IX pope.

Well, when anti-pope Clement VII died, the French cardinals elected antipope Benedict XIII. There’s a valid pope in Rome and an anti pope in Avignon, France.

Ok, here’s where it gets bad enough to have to deal with:

Scholars and secular rulers (without the valid Pope's doing) called a council in Pisa.  They elected another pope (anti pope Alexander V).  After Alexander V died, another man took his office under the title John XXIII.  Like the one elected in 1958.

So, now there are 2 anti popes, and one valid pope.

So, eventually an at least semi-valid council (Council of Constance) met from 1414-1418, and decided (among other important things) that all the popes, even the valid pope, who by now was Gregory XII (it went Urban VI, Boniface IX, Innocent VII, then Gregory XII, valid popes), had to resign, and they elected Pope Martin V. John XXIII actually didn’t resign, he had to be apprehended and deposed.

The matter is settled, I’m sure not everybody was happy, but hey, what can you do? Elect your own pope again? Still happens today apparently:rolleyes:

That’s my summary from “Catholicism for Dummies” p. 264 and 265 but I’ve read the same in other sources, but the dummy book was the most comprehensive and concise.


#3

The anti-popes were:

  1. St. Hippolytus in the reign of St Calixtus I (217-222)
  2. Novation, 251
  3. Felix II, 355
  4. Ursicinus, 366
  5. Eulalius, 418
  6. Laurence, 498
  7. Dioscorus, 530
  8. Virgilius 537 (Initially, he usurped the throne by illegitimate means - but received universal recognition AFTER the death of Silverius)
  9. St. Eugenius 654-657 (Elected during the lifetime of St Martin)
  10. Peter 686 Omitted from both Annuario Pontificio, 1997, Liberia Editrice Vatican and Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, 1913.)
  11. Theodore, 687
  12. Paschal, 687
  13. Constantine, 767
  14. Philip, 768
  15. Anastasius, 885
  16. Christopher, 903/4
  17. Leo VIII, 956-63 (There has always been a doubt whether John XII or Leo VIII was the lawful Pope of the time. Often deemed an anti-pope, Leo VIII is treated as lawful by the Annuario Pontificio.)
  18. Boniface VII, 974
  19. John XVI, 997
  20. Gregory VI, in the reign of Sergius IV (1009-1012)
  21. Sylvester III 1044 (His election is of doubtful validity, and his reign ended with the return of Benedict IX. He is recorded as anti-pope by Catholic Encyclopedia but not mentioned in Annuario Pontificio)
  22. Benedict X, 1058
  23. Honorius II, 1061
  24. Clement III, 1084
  25. Theodoric, 1100
  26. Albert, 1102
  27. Sylvester IV, 1105
  28. Gregory VIII, 1118
  29. Celestine II, 1124
  30. Anacletus II, 1130
  31. Victor IV, 1138
  32. Victor IV, 1159-1164
  33. Paschal III, 1164
  34. Calixtus III, 1168
  35. Innocent III, 1179-1180
  36. Nicholas V, 1328
  37. Clement VII, 1378-1394
  38. Benedict XIII, 1394-1417
  39. Clement VIII, 1417
  40. Alexander V, 1409-1410
  41. John XXIII 1410-1415
  42. Clement VIII 1423-29 Gil Sanchez Muñoz - Not mentioned in the Catholic Truth Society pamphlet.)
  43. Benedict XIV 1425-30 Bernardo Garnier - Not mentioned in the Catholic Truth Society pamphlet.)
  44. Felix V, 1440-1449

Since 1950 there have been some seventeen alleged Papal Claimants in addition to those who have been validly and licitly elected to the See of Peter - Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II. Furthermore, there appears to be three more waiting in the wings…

The following anti-popes WERE recorded at homestead.com/claimants/names.html
The webmaster, Robert Hess, who was a sedevacantist, is now reconciled with Rome. Deo Gratias.

  1. Michael Collin, Clement XV, 1950.
  2. Gaston Tremblay, Gregory XVII, 1968.
  3. Unknown, Lorenes, 1974 ( * ).
  4. Chester Olszewski, Chriszekial Elias in 1977, then Peter II in 1980.
  5. Clemente Dominguez Gomez, Gregory XVII, 1978.
  6. Unknown, Peter Athanasius II, 1984.
  7. Pierre Henri Bubois, Peter II, date unknown.
  8. Francis Konrad Schuckardt, Hadrian VII, 1984.
  9. David Bawden, Michael I, 1990.
  10. Fr. Valeriano Vestini, O.F.M. Cap., Valeriano I, 1990.
  11. Timothy Blasio Ahitler, 1991. Deceased.
  12. Fr. Victor Von Pentz, Linus II, 1994.
  13. Maurice Achieri, Peter II, 1995.
  14. Fr. Lucian Pulvermacher, O.F.M., Cap. Pius XIII, 1998.
  15. Bishop (Thsung) Zhong Huai-de (Joseph). Pius XIV. 1998. Died in 2002.
  16. Julius Tischler, Peter II, date unknown.
  17. Reinaldus Michael Benjamins, (Brother Raymond of the Trinity.) Gregory XIX, 2001.

Upcoming claimants (source was: homestead.com/claimants/names.html ) are:

  1. Visionary William Kamm, also known as “The Little Pebble,” intends to “become pope” the minute John Paul II dies.
  2. St. Jovite, Quebec, Canada: A “female pope” is alleged to already reside at St. Jovite. She will take over when Gregory XVII dies…
  3. Orrin, North Dakota, U.S.A.: Gary McLaughlin, also known as “Fr. X,” is alleged to be “the future pontiff.”

#4

[quote=Sean O L]The anti-popes were:

  1. St. Hippolytus in the reign of St Calixtus I (217-222)
  2. Novation, 251
  3. Felix II, 355
  4. Ursicinus, 366
  5. Eulalius, 418
  6. Laurence, 498
  7. Dioscorus, 530
  8. Virgilius 537 (Initially, he usurped the throne by illegitimate means - but received universal recognition AFTER the death of Silverius)
  9. St. Eugenius 654-657 (Elected during the lifetime of St Martin)
  10. Peter 686 Omitted from both Annuario Pontificio, 1997, Liberia Editrice Vatican and Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, 1913.)
  11. Theodore, 687
  12. Paschal, 687
  13. Constantine, 767
  14. Philip, 768
  15. Anastasius, 885
  16. Christopher, 903/4
  17. Leo VIII, 956-63 (There has always been a doubt whether John XII or Leo VIII was the lawful Pope of the time. Often deemed an anti-pope, Leo VIII is treated as lawful by the Annuario Pontificio.)
  18. Boniface VII, 974
  19. John XVI, 997
  20. Gregory VI, in the reign of Sergius IV (1009-1012)
  21. Sylvester III 1044 (His election is of doubtful validity, and his reign ended with the return of Benedict IX. He is recorded as anti-pope by Catholic Encyclopedia but not mentioned in Annuario Pontificio)
  22. Benedict X, 1058
  23. Honorius II, 1061
  24. Clement III, 1084
  25. Theodoric, 1100
  26. Albert, 1102
  27. Sylvester IV, 1105
  28. Gregory VIII, 1118
  29. Celestine II, 1124
  30. Anacletus II, 1130
  31. Victor IV, 1138
  32. Victor IV, 1159-1164
  33. Paschal III, 1164
  34. Calixtus III, 1168
  35. Innocent III, 1179-1180
  36. Nicholas V, 1328
  37. Clement VII, 1378-1394
  38. Benedict XIII, 1394-1417
  39. Clement VIII, 1417
  40. Alexander V, 1409-1410
  41. John XXIII 1410-1415
  42. Clement VIII 1423-29 Gil Sanchez Muñoz - Not mentioned in the Catholic Truth Society pamphlet.)
  43. Benedict XIV 1425-30 Bernardo Garnier - Not mentioned in the Catholic Truth Society pamphlet.)
  44. Felix V, 1440-1449

Since 1950 there have been some seventeen alleged Papal Claimants in addition to those who have been validly and licitly elected to the See of Peter - Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II. Furthermore, there appears to be three more waiting in the wings…

The following anti-popes WERE recorded at homestead.com/claimants/names.html
The webmaster, Robert Hess, who was a sedevacantist, is now reconciled with Rome. Deo Gratias.

  1. Michael Collin, Clement XV, 1950.
  2. Gaston Tremblay, Gregory XVII, 1968.
  3. Unknown, Lorenes, 1974 ( * ).
  4. Chester Olszewski, Chriszekial Elias in 1977, then Peter II in 1980.
  5. Clemente Dominguez Gomez, Gregory XVII, 1978.
  6. Unknown, Peter Athanasius II, 1984.
  7. Pierre Henri Bubois, Peter II, date unknown.
  8. Francis Konrad Schuckardt, Hadrian VII, 1984.
  9. David Bawden, Michael I, 1990.
  10. Fr. Valeriano Vestini, O.F.M. Cap., Valeriano I, 1990.
  11. Timothy Blasio Ahitler, 1991. Deceased.
  12. Fr. Victor Von Pentz, Linus II, 1994.
  13. Maurice Achieri, Peter II, 1995.
  14. Fr. Lucian Pulvermacher, O.F.M., Cap. Pius XIII, 1998.
  15. Bishop (Thsung) Zhong Huai-de (Joseph). Pius XIV. 1998. Died in 2002.
  16. Julius Tischler, Peter II, date unknown.
  17. Reinaldus Michael Benjamins, (Brother Raymond of the Trinity.) Gregory XIX, 2001.

Upcoming claimants (source was: homestead.com/claimants/names.html ) are:

  1. Visionary William Kamm, also known as “The Little Pebble,” intends to “become pope” the minute John Paul II dies.
  2. St. Jovite, Quebec, Canada: A “female pope” is alleged to already reside at St. Jovite. She will take over when Gregory XVII dies…
  3. Orrin, North Dakota, U.S.A.: Gary McLaughlin, also known as “Fr. X,” is alleged to be “the future pontiff.”
    [/quote]

Hi
Who gets to pick who’s the real pope and who’s the fake pope.
and which one get’s to ride in the popemobile and which one has to take the bus?
Dave.


#5

[quote=oudave]Hi
Who gets to pick who’s the real pope and who’s the fake pope.
and which one get’s to ride in the popemobile and which one has to take the bus?
Dave.
[/quote]

They have to be validly ordained,a conclave goes on.It would be something you might be interested in since you are going to try to learn about the Catholic Faith.right Dave?You are not one of those who would condemn without looking at facts according to the source not what you have heard or what you think is going on.God Bless


#6

Thank You for all of the information. I have also found a site that briefly describes the Western Schism.

I just couldn’t even figure out what search words to use to find it. Thank you all so much for putting me back on track.


#7

The College of Cardinals have a conclave to decide…at that time, a vote determines who the next Pope will be…it has to be a valid and licit vote…that is the only way to become the real Pope…SSPX and other groups hold their own elections, but they are not valid.

[quote=oudave]Hi
Who gets to pick who’s the real pope and who’s the fake pope.
and which one get’s to ride in the popemobile and which one has to take the bus?
Dave.
[/quote]


#8

Who gets to pick who’s the real pope and who’s the fake pope.
and which one get’s to ride in the popemobile and which one has to take the bus?

Just as there are ding-a-lings today who think they can “fool some of the people all the time” (that is, like “The Little Pebble”) - so too there have been ding-a-lings at various times going back to Judas.


#9

[quote=oudave]Hi
Who gets to pick who’s the real pope and who’s the fake pope.
and which one get’s to ride in the popemobile and which one has to take the bus?
Dave.
[/quote]

Only the College of Cardinals, in a conclave, can pick the valid, legitimate Pope. Anyone who never went through that process, isn’t the real one. Besides, any Tom, Dick or Harry can wear a costume, sit on a throne and “claim” to be a “Pope” but claiming to be one isn’t the same thing as being a validly elected one, so I don’t see any problem here.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#10

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