doubt


#1

im having severe doubts about the legitimacy of st faustina’s revelations.
there are some things which Jesus says which just dont make sense.
for example, when he offers to create “a whole new world just for her”, doesnt this strike anyone else as a bit odd? i mean wouldnt that totally contradict his plan for creation? also, it raises some questions, would she have been alone in that world? would jesus have actually done it if shed accepted? where would this world have been located?
please help me with this. there are other things Jesus supposedly said too, which dont make any sense to me either. i want to believe these revelations but im finding it difficult to.


#2

From what I’ve heard on just a few threads recently, I’m not impressed with her visions of purgatory. I’ve had purgative contemplation, which I think is a little bit like it, and it wasn’t a bunch of categories and sinners nicely categorized etc. I think these visions were out of her own imagination because there are too many things that just don’t connect.

From my personal experience at purgation in the Dark Night, and subsequently entrance into the kingdom, I’m not even convinced the saint was in the kingdom at all when she wrote these things, except in her belief. Or if she was in the Dark Night she must not have completed it. She almost sounds like an academic dreamer who has it all figured out, but hasn’t been there personally. Like a tour guide who just reads the brochures and tells us what they say.

I don’t know anything about her except these recent excerpts so it’s possible she’s done other things that have value – but the visions I’ve read about were apparently what she needed to see, when she needed to see them, but IMO nothing particularly useful for the rest of us. As if by her visions of purgatory we can become better Christians? I guess they must work for some people or they wouldn’t be published. :shrug:

Good thing the Church hasn’t endorsed her visions of purgatory.

Alan


#3

I am deeply saddened that a saint is being discredited in this manner, based not on what one has personally read in her Diary, but only upon hearsay of what allegedly was said in other threads. I have read St. Faustina's Diary many times and refer to it routinely for encouragement and wisdom in my daily life. Several passages were used by God to give me answers to prayer for suffering members of my family who were in dire consequences ... and they proved to be prophetic.

OP, is there a passage number that proves what you are saying? I have never read anything that resembles what you are putting forth here. Do you actually have the Diary?

And Alan, I find nothing of great detail regarding purgatory ... only two short passages that are not very descriptive at all and relate mostly to her prayers for the souls therein. However, she did have a vision of hell and describes it in almost the same terminology as did St. Teresa of Avila. St. Catherine of Genoa had many visions of purgatory that I have downloaded on my Kindle. Maybe you are thinking of her?

I pray that for all the wonderful good that was written in her Diary, this thread will not become an occasion to "bash St. Faustina." There's a good reason why someone is canonized. Part of the cause for anyone's canonization is to examine all the writings of a saint, in addition to a scrutiny of their life. If her words were so erroneous, then perhaps Rome should have put her on a shelf and scratched the cause.


#4

I didn’t mean that I just took quotes from posts, but I did read some of the diary. I’ll try to find the specifics; now I have to go to Mass.

I pray that for all the wonderful good that was written in her Diary, this thread will not become an occasion to “bash St. Faustina.” There’s a good reason why someone is canonized. Part of the cause for anyone’s canonization is to examine all the writings of a saint, in addition to a scrutiny of their life. If her words were so erroneous, then perhaps Rome should have put her on a shelf and scratched the cause.

Maybe I came on too negative, based on what it came across like to me when I read it, but I think what probably matters is that these visions are not official teachings, so we are not bound by them, right? It that’s the case than really the OP and I can say “I don’t see how those visions can be real,” but that doesn’t mean she either didn’t have the visions, or that the church is saying that her visions accurately reflect purgatory or heaven.

So maybe my message to the OP should be, “it’s OK it doesn’t matter if they are ‘real’ or not. We are not bound by personal revelation.’”

Alan


#5

As far as I know, her writings have not been approved

Even if approved they do not have to be believed as it is a private revelation.


#6

[quote="someperson555, post:1, topic:307668"]
i want to believe these revelations but im finding it difficult to.

[/quote]

Me too.
There are certain "staples" of private revelations that I'm always uncomfortable with:
1) The seer forgets that God is perfect, almighty and not bound by any kind of limits. The seer also forgets that Jesus Christ suffered and died so as to redeem all humanity. That's why the seer imagines Jesus as a man worthy of pity, who acts as if He is totally surprised to find out that people still sin. So He weeps, complains and begs the seer to do something to alleviate His sufferings (or, in the best case, to appease His wrath or the Father's wrath)
2) The seer is asked to suffer for other people's sins, as if Jesus' suffering and death were worthless or not enough. Or as if He died only for some sins already committed. So the seer becames the redeemer of humanity, instead of Jesus.
3) The seer is asked to promote a certain new devotion out of fear (if you don't promote this devotion, you will be punished for other people's sins).
4) The seer is The Chosen One, above all humanity.

Some quotes:

587
Once, I suddenly saw Jesus in great majesty, and He spoke these words to me: My daughter, if you wish, I will this instant create a new world, more beautiful than this one, and you will live there for the rest of your life. I answered, “I don‟t want any worlds. I want You, Jesus. I want to love You, with the same love that You have for me. I beg You for only one thing: to make my heart capable of loving You. (53) I am very much surprised at Your offer, my Jesus; what are those worlds to me? Even if You gave me a thousand of them, what are they to me? You know very well, Jesus, that my heart is dying of longing for You. Everything that is not You is nothing to me.” – At that moment, I could no longer see anything, but a strange force took over my soul, a strange fire sprang up in my heart, and I entered into a kind of agony for Him. Then I heard these words:** With no other soul do I unite Myself as closely and in such a way as I do with you**, and this because of the deep humility and ardent love which you have for Me.

154
Suddenly, I saw the Lord who said to me,** Know that if you neglect the matter of the painting of the image and the whole work of mercy, you will have to answer for a multitude of souls on the day of judgment.** After these worlds of Our Lord, a certain fear filled my soul, and alarm took hold of me. Try as I would, I could not calm myself. These words kept resounding in my ears: So, I will not only have to answer for myself on the day of judgment, but also for the souls of others.

190
Once during an adoration, the Lord** demanded that I give myself up to Him as an offering, by bearing a certain suffering in atonement, not only for the sins of the world in general, but specifically for transgressions committed in this house**.

580
(47) On a certain occasion, the Lord said to me, I am more deeply wounded by the small imperfections of chosen souls than by the sins of those living in the world. It made me very sad that chosen souls make Jesus suffer, and Jesus told me, These little imperfections are not all. I will reveal to you a secret of My Heart: what I suffer from chosen souls. Ingratitude in return for so many graces is My Heart‟s constant food, on the part of [such] a chosen soul. Their love is lukewarm, and My Heart cannot bear it; these souls force Me to reject them. Others distrust My goodness and have no desire to experience that sweet intimacy in their own hearts, but go in search of Me, off in the distance, and do not find Me. This distrust of My goodness hurts Me very much. If My death has not convinced you of My love, what will? Often a soul wounds Me mortally, and then no one can comfort Me. (48) They use My graces to offend Me. There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me. You, who are the dispenser of My mercy, tell all the world about My goodness, and thus you will comfort My Heart.

476
When I had said the prayer, in my soul I heard these words:** This prayer will serve to appease My wrath. You will recite it for nine days, on the beads of the rosary, in the following manner:**


#7

Are you finished yet? Dig a little harder – maybe you missed some dirt.

I won’t address this obvious attempt to besmirch this saint. Just note for the record that the Diary has both an Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur.

It is true we are not bound to accept private revelations, but I take exception to the last article #476 that Vames referenced, but cut short. This is the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and the Church has given explicit approval for devotion in praying it, just as certain as the rosary and other approved devotions.


#8

What I often see in these premises where a tiny iota of a saint’s words are not finding a home in the listener’s heart, is that the entire lifetime of holiness and sanctity is therefore cast into doubt. When a saint is canonized, we can be assured that they did not invent their narratives but spoke the truth as they understood it. St. Faustina, like St. Teresa of Avila, was commanded to write by her Confessor. His cause is also up for canonization.

Fr. Groeschel reported in his book, A Still Small Voice, that St. Catherine of Siena misunderstood a revelation concerning the Immaculate Conception. Nevertheless, the Church declared her a Doctor of the Church specifically for her writings and exemplary life of heroic virtue.

Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water and cast doubt into the minds of everyone who chances upon this thread.

A final thought to keep in mind: St. Faustina wrote her Diary in Polish and did not transcribe it into English. Others did this work. It is possible certain translations are misquoted, just as the Greek scriptures have proven somewhat faulty with certain word translations, like Petra, a small pebble. It throws the entire passage of Mt. 16:18 into a false light, not because the gospel is faulty, but the Greek language did not have a vocabulary to correctly depict it. Etc., Etc.


#9

The Diary having an Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur does not mean it is approved. There was some problems with the diary which was do to translation. The Devotion has been approved.

When a saint is canonized, we can be assured that they did not invent their narratives but spoke the truth as they understood it. St. Faustina, like St. Teresa of Avila, was commanded to write by her Confessor. His cause is also up for canonization.

Canonization does not assure us of anything other than they are in heaven.


#10

[quote="AlanFromWichita, post:2, topic:307668"]
From what I've heard on just a few threads recently, I'm not impressed with her visions of purgatory. I've had purgative contemplation, which I think is a little bit like it, and it wasn't a bunch of categories and sinners nicely categorized etc. I think these visions were out of her own imagination because there are too many things that just don't connect.

From my personal experience at purgation in the Dark Night, and subsequently entrance into the kingdom, I'm not even convinced the saint was in the kingdom at all when she wrote these things, except in her belief. Or if she was in the Dark Night she must not have completed it. She almost sounds like an academic dreamer who has it all figured out, but hasn't been there personally. Like a tour guide who just reads the brochures and tells us what they say.

I don't know anything about her except these recent excerpts so it's possible she's done other things that have value -- but the visions I've read about were apparently what she needed to see, when she needed to see them, but IMO nothing particularly useful for the rest of us. As if by her visions of purgatory we can become better Christians? I guess they must work for some people or they wouldn't be published. :shrug:

Good thing the Church hasn't endorsed her visions of purgatory.

Alan

[/quote]

theres also other things she writes which are scientifically incorrect, and dare i say even theologically(!)

one account which she writes about particularly makes me suspicious. when one of her deceased sisters supposedly comes to visit her from purgatory and speaks to her. i find this to be impossible since a human soul cannot talk, or even think without his physical body. since we are physical beings as well as spiritual beings, our naked souls alone cannot do anything by themselves. i dont know what th church says about this, but im quite certain that human souls are incapable of contacting the living.

with that being said, however i still like the divine mercy devotion, i think it does have power, but as for her revelations, i dont think they are meant to be taken literally. perhaps in a more figurative manner.


#11

i think private revelations are meant to be interpreted by the reader. i dont think anymore that private revelations should be taken literally. except in rare cases.


#12

[quote="Sirach2, post:3, topic:307668"]
I am deeply saddened that a saint is being discredited in this manner, based not on what one has personally read in her Diary, but only upon hearsay of what allegedly was said in other threads. I have read St. Faustina's Diary many times and refer to it routinely for encouragement and wisdom in my daily life. Several passages were used by God to give me answers to prayer for suffering members of my family who were in dire consequences ... and they proved to be prophetic.

OP, is there a passage number that proves what you are saying? I have never read anything that resembles what you are putting forth here. Do you actually have the Diary?

And Alan, I find nothing of great detail regarding purgatory ... only two short passages that are not very descriptive at all and relate mostly to her prayers for the souls therein. However, she did have a vision of hell and describes it in almost the same terminology as did St. Teresa of Avila. St. Catherine of Genoa had many visions of purgatory that I have downloaded on my Kindle. Maybe you are thinking of her?

I pray that for all the wonderful good that was written in her Diary, this thread will not become an occasion to "bash St. Faustina." There's a good reason why someone is canonized. Part of the cause for anyone's canonization is to examine all the writings of a saint, in addition to a scrutiny of their life. If her words were so erroneous, then perhaps Rome should have put her on a shelf and scratched the cause.

[/quote]

im not "bashing" st faustina, sorry if thats the vibe this thread gave off. im just honestly skeptical of some things. it seems really unlikely that the Jesus would say some of the things he supposedly said. but as i said i still have immense respect for her, and i still find reading her diary to be enlightening, but now i take it with a heavy grain of salt.


#13

and another thing Jesus said which i find especially troubling is that he demands us to worship his mercy. this clearly idolatry, no? we are supposed to worship God, not his attributes.


#14

[quote="adrift, post:9, topic:307668"]
The Diary having an Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur does not mean it is approved.

[/quote]

It does mean that there is nothing contrary or objective regarding our** faith or morals** within the book, but not necessarily agreement with everything that is written.

There was some problems with the diary which was due to translation. The Devotion has been approved.

Originally, yes, but approval has been given after the correct translations were made several years ago. Otherwise, there could be no N.O. or Imprimatur.

Canonization does not assure us of anything other than they are in heaven.

It tells us the candidate's virtue has been found to be **heroic, **and the Church holds them up for our veneration and intercessory prayer. Some are assigned an annual feast day that is celebrated in the universal church at mass. Would you therefore imply that a saint could be a liar? That her words were fabricated? That people should cast doubts on her worthiness?


#15

You banter these alleged quotes about, yet give no reference number so we can read it in context. I have a problem with the word “demand.” There were three places that refer to God’s Mercy: 180, 301, and 1074, and NONE of these are worded as you claim.

Have you read this one? 1760: Shun murmurers like a plague.

We need to remember that she wrote under obedience, so everything she considered as her obligation to obey was recorded in her notebooks. Some paragraphs may indeed have been only her perceptions, whether or not they were entirely accurate. We read with an open mind and heart to the Holy Spirit who will bring good out of our meditations on it. Jesus Himself also commanded her to write, and called her His Secretary, saying that many would benefit from her work. It has been wonderfully true for me.


#16

Maybe what you just wrote will help us see the gap between you and the OP, and I am, as I try to be on most threads, sympathetic to the OP’s case. Not necessarily to their exact words, but to the underlying point they are trying to make. :console:

I believe she was writing under obedience. And what you said about he perceptions and not guaranteed accurate, is IMO the whole point of this thread. That’s because I see people haul out quotes from the writings of this saint and that, and use them in arguments as if they were the Absolute Truth. Further, anyone who questions what the saints wrote is painted as against the saint when that really isn’t the point at all. But since the saint seems to have said something against another poster’s case, it is dragged out. So threads get argumentative, and posters end up having to defend themselves rather than explain themselves. So the topic becomes whether the poster has respect for the saint rather than whatever the point was the OP was even trying to make. :blackeye:

When posters start threads like these, keep in mind they might have been at the receiving end of verbal abuse in other threads, and they honestly don’t know what they did wrong, if anything. I understand this because I was very socially inept when I was little and I would get into trouble suddenly and randomly in grade school, and I would ask what I did wrong and they’d yell, “you know very well what you did young man,” and get even madder. So I ask that when we have a post like this that may sound accusatory to someone whose job it is to protect the “accused,” it really may not be. It may be a combination of frustration at not being able to know the “exactly correct words” to describe to a pack of lawyers what they mean, and having been attacked, put down, or seen other posters put down. That’s because we use teachings, writings from saints, etc. as a weapon and not as inspirational tool. I’m guessing you’ve seen these things happen. :wink:

I think we should quit trying to use saints as weapons against each other. We want the saints to back us up in a fight and take our side. That’s not the proper use of saintly writings. :frowning:

While I’m on the roll, I think we should in general on CAF quit trying to prove ourselves right to each other, using hostile terminology. Actually I’m not sure a lot of even recognize when the terminology is hostile, it’s so prevalent. :mad:

Alan


#17

[quote="AlanFromWichita, post:16, topic:307668"]
Maybe what you just wrote will help us see the gap between you and the OP, and I am, as I try to be on most threads, sympathetic to the OP's case. Not necessarily to their exact words, but to the underlying point they are trying to make. :console:

So threads get argumentative, and posters end up having to defend themselves rather than explain themselves. So the topic becomes whether the poster has respect for the saint rather than whatever the point was the OP was even trying to make. :blackeye:

When posters start threads like these, keep in mind they might have been at the receiving end of verbal abuse in other threads, and they honestly don't know what they did wrong, if anything.

While I'm on the roll, I think we should in general on CAF quit trying to prove ourselves right to each other, using hostile terminology. Actually I'm not sure a lot of even recognize when the terminology is hostile, it's so prevalent. :mad:

[/quote]

Alan, you tiptoe around the bush so delicately that it's hard to get hold of your intended meaning. If you are fingerpointing, send me a PM, please?


#18

[quote="Sirach2, post:15, topic:307668"]
You banter these alleged quotes about, yet give no reference number so we can read it in context. I have a problem with the word "demand." There were three places that refer to God's Mercy: 180, 301, and 1074, and NONE of these are worded as you claim.

Have you read this one? 1760: Shun murmurers like a plague.

We need to remember that she wrote under obedience, so everything she considered as her obligation to obey was recorded in her notebooks. Some paragraphs may indeed have been only her perceptions, whether or not they were entirely accurate. We read with an open mind and heart to the Holy Spirit who will bring good out of our meditations on it. Jesus Himself also commanded her to write, and called her His Secretary, saying that many would benefit from her work. It has been wonderfully true for me.

[/quote]

"...Yes, the first Sunday after Easter is the Feast of Mercy, but there must also be acts of mercy, and I demand the worship of My mercy through the solemn celebration of the Feast and through the veneration of the image which is painted. By means of this image I shall grant many graces to souls. It is to be a reminder of the demands of My mercy, because even the strongest faith is of no avail without works." (Diary, 742)

theres your quote.
why would Jesus demand we worship his mercy ?? that is clearly idolatry, youre going to have to explain that one to me.


#19

[quote="AlanFromWichita, post:16, topic:307668"]
Maybe what you just wrote will help us see the gap between you and the OP, and I am, as I try to be on most threads, sympathetic to the OP's case. Not necessarily to their exact words, but to the underlying point they are trying to make. :console:

I believe she was writing under obedience. And what you said about he perceptions and not guaranteed accurate, is IMO the whole point of this thread. That's because I see people haul out quotes from the writings of this saint and that, and use them in arguments as if they were the Absolute Truth. Further, anyone who questions what the saints wrote is painted as against the saint when that really isn't the point at all. But since the saint seems to have said something against another poster's case, it is dragged out. So threads get argumentative, and posters end up having to defend themselves rather than explain themselves. So the topic becomes whether the poster has respect for the saint rather than whatever the point was the OP was even trying to make. :blackeye:

[/quote]

lol yeah unfortunately many people on these forums always find a way to make the argument personal. they dont try to respond to the points raised in the thread, instead they immediately begin to question the motives and moral character of the OP.

[quote="AlanFromWichita, post:16, topic:307668"]
When posters start threads like these, keep in mind they might have been at the receiving end of verbal abuse in other threads, and they honestly don't know what they did wrong, if anything. I understand this because I was very socially inept when I was little and I would get into trouble suddenly and randomly in grade school, and I would ask what I did wrong and they'd yell, "you know very well what you did young man," and get even madder. So I ask that when we have a post like this that may sound accusatory to someone whose job it is to protect the "accused," it really may not be. It may be a combination of frustration at not being able to know the "exactly correct words" to describe to a pack of lawyers what they mean, and having been attacked, put down, or seen other posters put down. That's because we use teachings, writings from saints, etc. as a weapon and not as inspirational tool. I'm guessing you've seen these things happen. ;)

I think we should quit trying to use saints as weapons against each other. We want the saints to back us up in a fight and take our side. That's not the proper use of saintly writings. :(

While I'm on the roll, I think we should in general on CAF quit trying to prove ourselves right to each other, using hostile terminology. Actually I'm not sure a lot of even recognize when the terminology is hostile, it's so prevalent. :mad:

Alan

[/quote]


#20

No, it’s a general call for better posting across the forums, and an explanation of how I see an OP can get into this situation.

On your post, specifically, I thought the way you wrote could help us bridge the gap – so the part of the post where I went on a rant was not intended to apply to you. It wasn’t all rant, though … I was hoping it would speak to why certain posters get defensive. I used to get defensive routinely and once in a while I still do, so I’m always trying to examine the dynamics of the situation and how things develop because I try to deal with them at the root level, as much as possible. I’m not nearly as interested in whether a person believes I’m right, as whether they believe I have respect for them or am sympathetic to their situation.

I hope this clears it up; I was intended to launch off of what you wrote, not to go off on it. :wink:

Alan


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