Drinking alcolhol


#1

I have been in a Protestant Church ever since I have been in church. But as many of you who know me now my heart is in the Catholic Church looking into one day joining the Catholic Church. But in the mean time I am still going to a church of God denomination for family reasons.

Last light our pastor preached about against drinking alcolhol. I have done a great deal of study in the past on alcohol back when I was teaching and preaching. I know about all the debates against it. But how do you all feel about it? What are you positions? Personally I don;t drink and have no desire for it in any amount, but I don;t see anywhere in the Scriptures where it says to not drink at all. But I do know the Scriptures say to stay sober, and not to cause anyone to stumble in their faith. But I also know Jesus turned water into wine and that drinking wine was a norm back then.

Are their any clear cut fine lines? Does the Catechism say anything about it?


#2

As far as i know, and I don’t know that much, drinking alcohol is fine unless you abuse it. Also, I have read that it is fine to get drunk (it happens) but if getting drunk causes you to sin, then it is bad.


#3

the scriptures only talk about not getting drunk. they almost assume the consumption of wine (when speaking of elders and overseers it says they shouldn’t be a drinker of too much wine). the catechism (i think) says that anything that is taken too far is a sin, but when used in moderation it is not. therefore, alcohol consumed in moderation is not inherently sinful. now, if i am with a group of southern baptists who view alcohol as a sin and me drinking a beer would cause them to stumble in their faith, then one beer is sinful, but if i am taking my wife out for our anniversary next month and we have a glass of wine, that is not sinful. if i do belly shots off the local librarian (who is a woman by the way) that would be sinful (in multiple ways :smiley: ) but if i have a glass of brandy while reading my favorite book that is not. it is situational is what i am trying to say. if it is sinful, then why will we be drinking wine in heaven? :confused: Jesus said he will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until he drinks it with us in paradise (he doesn’t say we should abstain though, in fact he says whenever we eat bread and drink wine we share in his body and blood (i’m not getting into a eucharistic argument, i believe in the real presence, i am just making a point that Jesus expected us to continue to drink wine)). ultimately, if some one thinks it’s sinful then don’t drink it, but they have no biblical grounds for telling some one else not to drink…i love beer :thumbsup:


#4

Yes there are clear cut lines:

**1 Corinthians 6
**10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

**Nahum 1
**10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Pretty clear on what the Word says about it, in my opinion…

Now when Jesus turned water into wine, the wine that was used back in the day was not fermented and had very few if any alcoholic properties… it was for ceremonial purposes… not the wine that was in the bars…


#5

As far as i know, and I don’t know that much, drinking alcohol is fine unless you abuse it.

True. Alcohol is not an intrinsic evil because, as Copland pointed out, Jesus’ first miracle was of wine. Moderation is the key

Also, I have read that it is fine to get drunk (it happens) but if getting drunk causes you to sin, then it is bad.

I disagree. Getting drunk is an inherently sinful action. We are stewards of our bodies, temples of the Holy Spirit; The body deserves better treatment than getting wasted with an overkill of alcohol.

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous,**nor drunkards,**nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

– I Corinthians 6: 10-ish


#6

wrong.

the wine was fermented. read the whole story of Jesus turning the water into wine. the man says that normally the serve the best wine first and then bring out the cheap stuff when the people have had “too much to drink” (i.e. drunk). the wine was fermented, maybe not as strong as some today, but definitely could alter your state of mind (why else would there be verses saying not to get drunk or be a drunkard such as the ones you provided). there is nothing in scripture forbidding the consumption of alcohol in moderation (unless you have taken the vow of a nazarite like samson, john the baptist, and paul at one time). the bible only forbids getting drunk.


#7

[quote=John Mortell]True. Alcohol is not an intrinsic evil because, as Copland pointed out, Jesus’ first miracle was of wine. Moderation is the key

I disagree. Getting drunk is an inherently sinful action. We are stewards of our bodies, temples of the Holy Spirit; The body deserves better treatment than getting wasted with an overkill of alcohol.
– I Corinthians 6: 10-ish
[/quote]

exactly! :thumbsup:


#8

[quote=JesusIsTheWay]Yes there are clear cut lines:

**1 Corinthians 6
**10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

**Nahum 1
**10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Pretty clear on what the Word says about it, in my opinion…

it is pretty clear…don’t get drunk not don’t drink at all.

[/quote]


#9

[quote=copland]I have been in a Protestant Church ever since I have been in church. But as many of you who know me now my heart is in the Catholic Church looking into one day joining the Catholic Church. But in the mean time I am still going to a church of God denomination for family reasons.

Last light our pastor preached about against drinking alcolhol. I have done a great deal of study in the past on alcohol back when I was teaching and preaching. I know about all the debates against it. But how do you all feel about it? What are you positions? Personally I don;t drink and have no desire for it in any amount, but I don;t see anywhere in the Scriptures where it says to not drink at all. But I do know the Scriptures say to stay sober, and not to cause anyone to stumble in their faith. But I also know Jesus turned water into wine and that drinking wine was a norm back then.

Are their any clear cut fine lines? Does the Catechism say anything about it?
[/quote]

the use has never been a problem for the non-alcoholic, it’s ALWAYS been the abuse where sin enters in… as far as your joining the church… either squat or get off the pot… :slight_smile: , seriously, i hope you find your way home… :thumbsup:


#10

If drinking alcohol is sinful, then I can blame my sin on the Vatican!:smiley: (When I studied theology and lived in Rome, we had wine with almost every meal except breakfast!) Wine is part of created goodness; like many good creations it can be subverted to bad purpose. The wine at Cana might not have been strong, but we have no reason to believe it was grape juice and not true wine. The Italians have a joke that the sin is in drinking CHEAP wine!


#11

[quote=JesusIsTheWay]Yes there are clear cut lines:

1 Corinthians 6
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Nahum 1
10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Pretty clear on what the Word says about it, in my opinion…

Now when Jesus turned water into wine, the wine that was used back in the day was not fermented and had very few if any alcoholic properties… it was for ceremonial purposes… not the wine that was in the bars…
[/quote]


#12

ok… I am 290 lbs… 30% body fat… how much am I allowed to drink? I didn’t see a specific BA content in the bible…


#13

[quote=JesusIsTheWay]Yes there are clear cut lines:

**1 Corinthians 6
**10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

**Nahum 1
**10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Pretty clear on what the Word says about it, in my opinion…

Now when Jesus turned water into wine, the wine that was used back in the day was not fermented and had very few if any alcoholic properties… it was for ceremonial purposes… not the wine that was in the bars…
[/quote]

The parable of the new and old wine skins makes no sense if it was not alcoholic.

Throughout scripture wine is a sign of blessing and the absence of it a curse. Wine was given to kings and used in worship. Since grapejuice wasnot invented until Welch’s it could not have been that. And they had not means to stop the fermentation proces which begins immediately.

Not only does scripture allow for consumption of alcohol it encourges it and in the case of, Holy Conmunion it commands it. Here are some more scriptures for your consideration:

*Exodus 29:38-40

“Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs a year old day by day regularly. One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. And with the first lamb a tenth seah of fine flour mingled with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and a fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering.*

*Numbers 28:7

Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord.*

God required wine as an offering to Him as a sweet aroma.

*Deuteronomy 14:25-27

…then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.*

*Psalm 104: 14-15

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man’s heart.*

*Proverbs 31:6

Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress…*

Finally, Jesus drank wine. If you say drinking is wrong then you are saying you are more Holy than Jesus.

The Bible teaches us not to get drunk. It also teaches us not to be gluttons. Following the same logic as those who say drink is forbidden then so is food, since people abuse it.

Mel


#14

that would all depend on how much you’ve eaten that day and your tolerance for alcohol. of course the bible doesn’t say, God knows the factors that go into how much it takes for some one to be “drunk”. the key to the argument is that He says not to be a drunkard, but Jesus drank wine (and yes, it was fermented which was the whole point. if it wasn’t fermented, it was grape juice which could go sour and the point of drinking wine was celebratory and it was safer than water which carried diseases. the wine had to have a certain amount of alcohol to kill the diseases and allow it to keep). Jesus was even accused of being a drunkard (even though we know that, as God, he showed self-control and didn’t succumb to drunkeness). so in answer to your question, jesus (lower case for you as i know you have faith and you wouldn’t want me to capitalize your jesus as i capitalize Jesus :slight_smile: ) you have to figure that one out for yourself as to how much alcohol you can consume without being drunk. i would say to that it doesn’t give us a license to go all the way to that edge and then stop (that’s like asking, “how far can i go with my girlfriend without it being a sin?” and we both know that if you’re asking that question you are probably sinning). just be wise and “always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in you…”.


#15

When you’ve had so much that your moral and mental faculties are impaired, and you are much more likely to invite sin, then you’ve had too much. “Drunk” is not a matter of BA level, after all.

I work in emergency medicine, and there are people who REQUIRE a high BA level in order to survive (due to past heavy drinking), and they don’t get “drunk” until levels that would be 100% fatal for the average person. Meanwhile a “light-weight” could be walking in traffic after a single beer, regardless of body size, and that would be taking drinking to a sinful level.


#16

I agree in general that drinking is fine in moderation, as long as you don’t get tipsy or drunk.

However, I have come to believe a few other things.

All too often I see people excited about their 21’st birthday because they can now go out and drink. Many of these are good people that I know will drink in moderation. The problem? It seems to me that even if they are exhibiting temperance, the excitement and desire to go drink something for the sole purpose of drinking the first moment they can seems like a bit of idolitry to me.

I’d also like to draw an analogy to gasp liturgical dance. We recognize that in african and asian culture, dance is a form of rejoicing and worship, and thus as part of their culture is fully understandable in a catholic worship ceremony. However in our culture, where dance is a way of “Doing what I feel like, when I want to” and being lustful with with others, and overall just the norm of our society, it is very inappropriate and abusive to place in a mass.

I see a similarity between alcohal. Whereas once it was one of the few forms of flavored beverages, a way to grow in community and protestant word warning fellowship, in our western culture it has become a sign of drunkedness, lust, “whatever feels good to have fun.” And even though we by ourselves can be moderate in our drinking, it seems like as long as this is our culture, we should not endorse it by drinking publically.

Josh


#17

[quote=JesusIsTheWay]ok… I am 290 lbs… 30% body fat… how much am I allowed to drink? I didn’t see a specific BA content in the bible…
[/quote]

What is the precise portion size for each meal you eat since there is no specific PS is the bible? Should you not eat to avoid the posiibility of gluttony?

I think common sense does come into play. If you are 290 and you have a glass or two of wine with a meal or shortly after you will not be anywhere close to drunk. All of God’s good gifts in moderation. And wine is a good gift of God.

Mel


#18

[quote=Fortiterinre]If drinking alcohol is sinful, then I can blame my sin on the Vatican!:smiley: (When I studied theology and lived in Rome, we had wine with almost every meal except breakfast!) Wine is part of created goodness; like many good creations it can be subverted to bad purpose. The wine at Cana might not have been strong, but we have no reason to believe it was grape juice and not true wine. The Italians have a joke that the sin is in drinking CHEAP wine!
[/quote]

Amen to that last sentence. :thumbsup:


#19

i have to disagree. the dance analogy is not a good one in that dancing is a form of worship (david danced unto the Lord) and just because it has been corrupted by society doesn’t mean we should throw it out. just as with alcohol. it does have things attached to it in our society but we must take it back as a gift from God and the only way to do that is to treat it as it should. not to go the complete opposite route and condemn it. also, i think a lot of the “bad rap” alcohol has gotten has come from many protestant denomination’s misinterpretation of scripture. are we bound by that? i say, drink in public and do it the correct way, in celebration, in fellowship, and in worship. i feel fairly confident in saying that Jesus would have a pint with me in public.


#20

[quote=threej_lc]I agree in general that drinking is fine in moderation, as long as you don’t get tipsy or drunk.

However, I have come to believe a few other things.

All too often I see people excited about their 21’st birthday because they can now go out and drink. Many of these are good people that I know will drink in moderation. The problem? It seems to me that even if they are exhibiting temperance, the excitement and desire to go drink something for the sole purpose of drinking the first moment they can seems like a bit of idolitry to me.

I’d also like to draw an analogy to gasp liturgical dance. We recognize that in african and asian culture, dance is a form of rejoicing and worship, and thus as part of their culture is fully understandable in a catholic worship ceremony. However in our culture, where dance is a way of “Doing what I feel like, when I want to” and being lustful with with others, and overall just the norm of our society, it is very inappropriate and abusive to place in a mass.

I see a similarity between alcohal. Whereas once it was one of the few forms of flavored beverages, a way to grow in community and protestant word warning fellowship, in our western culture it has become a sign of drunkedness, lust, “whatever feels good to have fun.” And even though we by ourselves can be moderate in our drinking, it seems like as long as this is our culture, we should not endorse it by drinking publically.

Josh
[/quote]

Josh,

Do we let those who abuse God’s gifts dictate our use of them? I am married into a European-American family and to not drink wine with dinner is just plain weird to them. And honestly, I don’t know how old you, are but I have been in many a social settings where there was beer, wine and harder stuff all being consumed responsibly by most people.

We should never let the temperance movement, which was a brief moment in history n one part of the world, keep us from participating in a cross cultural and time honored practice that is both healthy and indeed Christian.

Mel


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.