During Veneration of the Cross: crucifix or cross

With Lent fast approaching, what is the correct item to use during Veneration of the Cross? Crucifix or plain wooden cross?

A Crucifix. During the Good Friday liturgy a wooden crucifix is used with the corpus (body) is covered up and then revealed by the priest. Then the fully revealed crucifix is venerated by the congregation. I supposed the veneration of the cross as done on Good Friday (genuflection and kissing the feet of the cross) could be done outside the Good Friday liturgy.

[quote="corsair, post:1, topic:181092"]
With Lent fast approaching, what is the correct item to use during Veneration of the Cross? Crucifix or plain wooden cross?

[/quote]

A crucifix.

In my parish a large wooden black cross without a corpse is used for veneration.
I never really liked to idea of venerating a wooden ordinary cross that is not even blessed.

Must be some modern Novus Ordo liberal idea.

There was an archaic time in some Catholic Churches we see in modern times today where a simple blessed crucifix held by a priest, deacon, or altar boy using a purificator was venerated by a kiss on Good Friday. This practice of using a bland black painted corpse-less cross on Good Friday has been a thorn in my side for many years.
I don't know what gets in the minds of some clergy members at times who want to throw devote traditional practices in the sewer in favor of modern practices.

My apologies for feeling perturbed by this. I suppose symbolism takes many forms.
Maybe it's me who's overly archaic? I don't know?

[quote="centurionguard, post:4, topic:181092"]
In my parish a large wooden black cross without a corpse is used for veneration.
I never really liked to idea of venerating a wooden ordinary cross that is not even blessed.

Must be some modern Novus Ordo liberal idea.

There was an archaic time in some Catholic Churches we see in modern times today where a simple blessed crucifix held by a priest, deacon, or altar boy using a purificator was venerated by a kiss on Good Friday. This practice of using a bland black painted corpse-less cross on Good Friday has been a thorn in my side for many years.
I don't know what gets in the minds of some clergy members at times who want to throw devote traditional practices in the sewer in favor of modern practices.

My apologies for feeling perturbed by this. I suppose symbolism takes many forms.
Maybe it's me who's overly archaic? I don't know?

[/quote]

Could you therefore please explain why the prescribed chant of the Good Friday liturgy proclaims: "Behold the **wood **of the cross, on which **hung **the Savior of the world?" Notice the words "wood" and the past tense "hung." My understanding is that a plain wooden cross is completely consistent with the rubrics for the Veneration component of the Good Friday liturgy, and is neither a "Novus Ordo liberal idea" promoted by "some clergy members" nor representative of throwing something in the "sewer."

[quote="Mattapoisett64, post:5, topic:181092"]
Could you therefore please explain why the prescribed chant of the Good Friday liturgy proclaims: "Behold the **wood **of the cross, on which **hung **the Savior of the world?" Notice the words "wood" and the past tense "hung." My understanding is that a plain wooden cross is completely consistent with the rubrics for the Veneration component of the Good Friday liturgy, and is neither a "Novus Ordo liberal idea" promoted by "some clergy members" nor representative of throwing something in the "sewer."

[/quote]

I agree those are strong words to toss around. However on Good Friday we reflect on the death and Crucifixion of Christ, Christ on the cross. The Empty cross and closed tomb reflection is for Holy Saturday.

[quote="Br.Rich_SFO, post:6, topic:181092"]
I agree those are strong words to toss around. However on Good Friday we reflect on the death and Crucifixion of Christ, Christ on the cross. The Empty cross and closed tomb reflection is for Holy Saturday.

[/quote]

The argument I've repeatedly heard is that the documents, even in Latin, specifically refer to 'Cross' and not 'Crucifix'. My opinion on the matter is that the Pope's use of a Crucifix should tell us all we need to know on the topic.

The first time I encountered a non-Crucifix was my first Good Friday in this parish back in 1998. The veneration was of a an 8'-9' tall cross, made of one tree, still with bark on. It took 4 men to carry it for the procession and unveiling. Once the veneration was over this cross stood in the sanctuary until the Vigil.

A few years ago, they went with a new, smaller cross, made with 2" X 6" pine boards, stained brown. UGLEEEE! It warped after the first year and just doesn't conform to the Circular Letter Concerning the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts' exhortation that

  1. For the veneration of the Cross, let a cross be used that is of appropriate size and beauty,

This year the pastor wants to use a crucifix, the large one with plaster corpus that's been hanging in the sanctuary each Lent for the past several years. Problem there is that the corpus fell off about 4 years ago and smashed so this visibly repaired cracked Jesus doesn't really meet the 'beauty' requirements either although I suppose we could say it's a metaphor for his Body broken and shared for all.

[quote="Mattapoisett64, post:5, topic:181092"]
Could you therefore please explain why the prescribed chant of the Good Friday liturgy proclaims: "Behold the **wood **of the cross, on which **hung **the Savior of the world?" Notice the words "wood" and the past tense "hung." My understanding is that a plain wooden cross is completely consistent with the rubrics for the Veneration component of the Good Friday liturgy, and is neither a "Novus Ordo liberal idea" promoted by "some clergy members" nor representative of throwing something in the "sewer."

[/quote]

First of all I gave no hint of disrespect to your aforementioned assertion

Could you therefore please explain why the prescribed chant of the Good Friday liturgy proclaims: "Behold the *wood *of the cross, on which **hung **the Savior of the world?"

Secondly; I hardly call placing your hand on a plain wooden corpse-less cross no matter how dreadfully constructed an act of veneration compared to venerating a simple crucifix with a kiss. Of course everyone has there own interior sense of symbolism when venerating on Good Friday. I'm an old school Catholic who likes tradition not the modern fanfare seen in ("some") liberal Catholic Churches that I have to put up with.

What good valid reason would ("some") clergy members have for removing the traditional veneration of the crucifix with a kiss? I know a lot of young Catholics in their 20's and 30's who never even heard of this.

[quote="centurionguard, post:8, topic:181092"]
First of all I gave no hint of disrespect to your aforementioned assertion

Secondly; I hardly call placing your hand on a plain wooden corpse-less cross no matter how dreadfully constructed an act of veneration compared to venerating a simple crucifix with a kiss. Of course everyone has there own interior sense of symbolism when venerating on Good Friday. I'm an old school Catholic who likes tradition not the modern fanfare seen in ("some") liberal Catholic Churches that I have to put up with.

What good valid reason would ("some") clergy members have for removing the traditional veneration of the crucifix with a kiss? I know a lot of young Catholics in their 20's and 30's who never even heard of this.

[/quote]

It seems to me that putting your mouth on the crucifix decreased in popularity around the same time that HIV/AIDS reared its ugly head. That's around the same time that practices changed in a lot of settings, including hospitals.

I must say though, that I see several people kissing the cross each year. But you're right, it's not the way I remember it with the priest holding the crucifix and the altar boy wiping the feet of Jesus after every worshipper kissed them.

[quote="corsair, post:1, topic:181092"]
With Lent fast approaching, what is the correct item to use during Veneration of the Cross? Crucifix or plain wooden cross?

[/quote]

For Catholics, a Corpus should be venerated, although I have attended services where only a wooden cross was present.

[quote="corsair, post:1, topic:181092"]
With Lent fast approaching, what is the correct item to use during Veneration of the Cross? Crucifix or plain wooden cross?

[/quote]

Today is the third day of the Christmas Triduum and Lent is "fast approaching"? :confused:

[quote="Chatter163, post:11, topic:181092"]
Today is the third day of the Christmas Triduum and Lent is "fast approaching"? :confused:

[/quote]

It's only 7 weeks away.

I've heard of the Octave of Christmas, but the Christmas Triduum??

[quote="Phemie, post:12, topic:181092"]
It's only 7 weeks away.

I've heard of the Octave of Christmas, but the Christmas Triduum??

[/quote]

Looking at...

** Originally Posted by corsair View Post
With Lent fast approaching, what is the correct item to use during Veneration of the Cross? Crucifix or plain wooden cross?**

I'm thinking it was a grammatical typo error. At least in support of his favor.:D

Not sure how the Christmas Triduum got into this?

[quote="centurionguard, post:13, topic:181092"]
Not sure how the Christmas Triduum got into this?

[/quote]

Post #11.

[quote="Phemie, post:12, topic:181092"]
I've heard of the Octave of Christmas, but the Christmas Triduum??

[/quote]

The three days after Christmas are, respectively, the feasts of St. Stephen, St. John and the Holy Innocents. Each of these feast days were placed directly after Christmas due to their relationship to Our Lord. St. Stephen was the protomartyr, the first to willingly give up his life for Our Lord. St. John was the beloved disciple ("whom Jesus loved") and the prologue to his gospel speaks of the incarnation ("and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.") The Holy Innocents were the first to die for the newborn Lord. These three days are known as the Christmas Triduum.

[quote="Chatter163, post:14, topic:181092"]
Post #11.

The three days after Christmas are, respectively, the feasts of St. Stephen, St. John and the Holy Innocents. Each of these feast days were placed directly after Christmas due to their relationship to Our Lord. St. Stephen was the protomartyr, the first to willingly give up his life for Our Lord. St. John was the beloved disciple ("whom Jesus loved") and the prologue to his gospel speaks of the incarnation ("and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.") The Holy Innocents were the first to die for the newborn Lord. These three days are known as the Christmas Triduum.

[/quote]

**I've never seen any official Church teachings calling the three days proceeding the Eve of Christmas being called the Christmas Triduum

The Octave of Christmas already includes these days you mention.

December 25; the First Day of the Christmas Octave, the Nativity of the Lord.

December 26; the Second Day of the Christmas Octave, St. Stephen, First Martyr.

December 27; the Third Day of the Christmas Octave, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist.

December 28; the Fourth Day of the Christmas Octave, The Holy Innocents, Martyrs.

December 29; the Fifth Day of the Christmas Octave, Thomas Becket, Bishop and Martyr.

December 30; the Sixth Day of the Christmas Octave, The Holy Family.

December 31; the Seventh Day of the Christmas Octave, Sylvester I, Pope.

January 1; The Eighth Day of the Christmas Octave, The Mother of God
**

[quote="centurionguard, post:15, topic:181092"]
I've never seen any official Church teachings calling the three days proceeding the Eve of Christmas being called the Christmas Triduum

The Octave of Christmas already includes these days you mention.

[/quote]

I am not sure what "official Church teachings" you seek. This is not a matter of faith and dognma, nor did I claim it to be. The term is used because of the three feast days that I mentioned, each of which relates in a special way to Our Lord. The days were anciently placed where they are because of this special relationship.

I am aware of what the Christmas Octave is and which days are in it, though not all of those feasts are related to the Christmas cycle. St. Thomas Becket and St. Sylvester are there because they died on those days, not for any other reason. Yet we do not know the dates that Sts. Stephen, John and the Holy Innocents died, and the Church placed them immediately after Christmas for the reasons already explained. Triduum simply means a three-day period; it is not exclusive to the Easter Triduum, though those days are of the highest rank and importance, and the term Triduum is certainly more frequently associated with that. However, I am not sure why you would respond in such an incredulous and irritated manner to the mention of the Christmas Triduum, simply because you are not familiar with a term.

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