Dutch Dominicans keep the reform alive

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/170066?eng=y

This shocked me. Seriously, I knew that the clergy in Holland was liberal, but this. This cant even be considered valid, can it? Yet they say this is what Vatican II really wanted.

Interdict, anyone?

Re SSPX and the Dutch Dominicans who are teaching heresy??
Would it be a sin to associate with and attend masses by the Dutch Dominicans?

But maybe all those who think the Dutch Dominicans are teaching heresy should leave the Church, since it’s only the pope who can define who’s teaching heresy??

Once the idea that the laity can perform the consecration is implanted–the next step is drawing the “presiders” from the assembly. The Neocatechumenal Way “fruit” is becoming more and more evident.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=3&Pg=Forum6&recnu=72&number=504371

Consecrated Host
Question from Matt on 5/25/2007:

The priest at our parish just explained that if we truly have faith that we as lay people can change the host at Mass into the blessed sacrament. I never realized this before. Why do priests need to be ordained then as I’m sure our priest have faith? Can you expalin this to me?

Where is Rome? Two groups, both with some influence I gather, are promoting a Liturgy that is invalid and outright heretical, but Rome doesnt seem to have noticed.

I mean no disrespect and I will not even pretend to know what is really going on in the mind of the Holy Father when I say this- I get the daily email from the Vatican Information Service on the Pope’s addresses and recent documents and such, and sometimes it seems that His Holiness and the curia are in their own little world. The liberals and progressives like these Dutch groups have ran rampant over the Church, especially in the west, for the last 40 years or more, and for the most part Rome has turned a blind eye (not that there hasnt been condemnation for the various forms of dissent in general, but specific groups are left alone).

Had this happened a hundred years ago the excommunications would have been swift and decisive, and these provincials who supported the heretics would probably be under arrest. Believe me when I say that I do realize we are in a differant time, but you would think Rome would do something about this.

This is why Bl. Pius IX invited the Orthodox to the First Vatican Council (they declined) but did not invite the Dutch bishops…

[quote=HenryV]Would it be a sin to associate with and attend masses by the Dutch Dominicans?
[/quote]

To participate in a “Mass” where the laity are doing the “consecration” would be sacrilegious and a sin.

But maybe all those who think the Dutch Dominicans are teaching heresy should leave the Church, since it’s only the pope who can define who’s teaching heresy??

Of course not, stop being so hardheaded about this stuff. You can’t go ordaining bishops without permission from the Apostolic See because there are Dominicans doing heretical stuff. That doesn’t give you the right to commit other sins. If those Dominicans happened to be your lawful superiors, which I doubt, until they have their faculties removed by the proper authority (their bishop or the Apostolic See) you would be bound to what they command that is not contrary to the faith (which would seem to be very little at this point).

Different times have seen different reactions from the hierarchy. Pope St. Stephen I was about to excommunicate a huge portion of the Church for sacreligious practices, but he died and his successor St. Sixtus II tolerated for it the sake of peace.

Likewise, Pope St. Damasus I seemingly turned a blind eye to all the really horrible stuff going on in the East despite St. Basil’s pleas to excommunicate them and to send bishops for a synod to condemn the errors.

Point being, these things take time and require different measures.

I look to St. Basil in times like this. We have to have patience and faith, and in the meantime see what can we do as individuals to spread truth and virtue where God has placed us.

Of course, as St. Basil said, “the saddest thing about it all is that the sound part is divided against itself, and the troubles we are suffering are like those which once befell Jerusalem when Vespasian was besieging it. The Jews of that time were at once beset by foes without and consumed by the internal sedition of their own people. In our case, too, in addition to the open attack of the heretics, the Churches are reduced to utter helplessness by the war raging among those who are supposed to be orthodox.”

If we focus on virtue and charity where we can, as that is the path to unity in faith, and put aside the mutual attacks (not speaking to you Caesar, just speaking generally now), things will get better. Creating communities generally independent from all ecclesiastical authority which sit on the sidelines of the battle throwing stones under the pretext of resisting bad authorities not the way to go, according to St. Catherine of Siena who had do to deal with another time scandal and ecclesiastical toleration.

I think…if you’re not Dutch, this is impossible to understand…but…in my home-town of Apeldoorn we had 2 priests who had children with their ‘house-keepers’, another who had a boyfriend, a local insurance salesman…When I was in my old parish in March this year, the priest was just leaving for Nijmegen and said in his farewell (sermon, I suppose) ’ Lydia (his ‘housekeeper’) and the children would like to thank you for 18 wonderful years in Apeldoorn…’ Basically, it was fully accepted. In ‘Drie Ranken’ , a community centre church we had children being baptised Catholic/Reformed/Calvinist, by a priest and the vicar/elder of the other 2 communities that used the ‘Three Branches’ (Drie Ranken)…EVERYBODY was allowed to receive H.Communion and during the Calvinist or Reformed services, EVERYBODY including the Catholics were welcome to the ‘Evening-meal Table’ (i.e. to share the bread and wine/grapejuice). Archbishop Simonis KNEW and was hauled to the Vatican several times by both Pope JPII and Pope Benedict XVI…but in the end, Dutch mentality ('Nobody will tell US what to do!) always won, and I remember Pope JPII being pelted with rotten tomatoes during his Papal Visit in 1985!

So…I’m not at all surprised at this, to be honest, things are much, much worse than this article portrays. Much worse!

Anna x

More evidence of the New Springtime?

Wow. What you describe sounds exactly what St. Catherine of Siena describes in her Dialogue. If you can get your hands on it, I think it would give you some consolation and some ideas as to the proper response you should have to it.

amazon.ca/Catherine-Siena-Dialogue-Suzanne-Noffke/dp/0809122332

Its stuff like this that gets me really frustrated, and it isnt so much that these priests are doing such things- heresy exists and it always has- it is the apparent lack of concern, even tolerance and encouragement, shown by their own superiors, and the slow, largely useless, approach Rome takes in dealing with them. Here we have groups undermining the very core of the theology of the Mass, but of course Rome has far more important issues at hand- enviromentalism and ecumenism and such.

Sometimes I am very tempted to think that the SSPX might have a point after all :frowning:

The greatest orthodox bishop we had, Ter Schure, ended up being posted to ICELAND (no offense, but come on…no Catholics there!) because in his diocese of Roermond the Catholics REFUSED to hear Mass until he left, because he was considered ‘fanatical’…in the end, Pope JPII took pity on his dear friend, who’s health had greatly suffered from being demonised in the press and by his own priests who preached against him, that he was transferred to Iceland:(

Yes, I love St Catherine of Siena, and it is comfort to know these problems aren’t ‘new’, but Holland’s Catholics need your prayers, lots and lots of prayers!!!

Anna x

Definitely–prayers and penance, penance, penance!

I think, Caesar, that the point MIGHT be that the Holy See hopes for their repentance. There may be private calls for it, which may give way to public calls, which may lead to other, harsher penalties, if they do not respond. That doesn’t mean that this doesn’t matter to the Holy See.

I think the saddest thing is that, sure, we don’t know just how aware the Vatican is of this or what they’ve tried to do so far behind the scenes, so we can’t jump to conclusions there. But we do know what the Roman authorities of the Order of Preachers have said to the matter, and it is the most shameful spirit of Vatican II evasion I have seen in modern times:

"“It may be that they feel as if the Church authorities have not dealt adequately with this question, and as a result they are pushing for a more open dialogue. …] We believe that this concern must be answered with theological reflection and a prudent pastoral approach between the entire Church and the Dominican order.”

There is no room for dialogue here, Fathers, unless its a negotiation as to just how strict the punishment will be for such a base sacrilege. There is no “theological reflection” required to figure out whether the congregation can elect a lesbian to confect the Eucharist. Grow a spine and teach the Catholic faith. I’m so ashamed for the Dominicans right now - not that certain of their members have done something crazy but that this is the best their leaders, their supposed *creme de la creme, *could muster in response.

I propose that tomorrow, Friday October 5th, we abstain from food in penance for the sins of the Augustinian canons in Nijmegen, the Dutch Dominicans, and the Dominican superiors in Rome, and in reparation for the insults the Blessed Sacrament has suffered from their sins and heresies.

I’m not sure if I’ll be able to go all the way, but I’ll at least try to tailor my penance tomorrow toward that end.

I will be willing to bet my retirement that Rome does nothing about the situation. I mean lets get real, the Life Teen people have pulled some outrageous things and have not been harshly dealt with and they continue to do so, paying lip service only to the wishes and directives from Rome. The Neo Catechumanals TOTALLY re wrote the Mass and have not been censured in any way and yes, are even allowed to evangelize and promote what they do, the Jesuit order got so badly out of control that the Holy father had to step in and straighten them out, if you can call what they are today straight, non Catholics are allowed to be in the Sanctuary when the consecration takes place and no one does anything and what about all the religious that were involved in the sex abuse scandals and are still around, hum?

If the Vatican is going to permit all matter of abuses and heresies to exist in the apparent fear of seeming judgemental and behind the times, why would they do anything to stop this particular group?

Will someone please explain to me why the SSPX are the bad guys and heretics such as these are slapped on the wrist or worse ignored? Who are we trying to please here? God or Rome? I don’t agree w/ the SSPX, but I understand their position more clearly everytime I read of heresy such as this.

Amen.

I’m in. :frowning:

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