Eastern Catholic?


#1

has anyone ever heard of “The apostolic Catholic Church of the East?”

Are they in communon with Rome? Are they schismatic or heretical?

It sounds suspect to me. The priests can marry after or before they are ordained (I know, the eastern church priests can marry before they are ordained- but I don’t think after as well). They administer the eucharist to anyone regardless of faith. They do not have the sacrement of reconciliation.

Any info on the group would be appreciated. Thanks.


#2

You mean the Eastern Rites?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church

Look under autonomous churches and you might find the explanation.

The requirement to be a celibate priest in the Latin Rite is a matter of discipline. The Vatican can change that if they wanted to (I think). Its just that a priest with no family can devote his life to God much more than a priest that has to take care of the wife and kids.


#3

[quote=onesimplemind]You mean the Eastern Rites?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church

Look under autonomous churches and you might find the explanation.

The requirement to be a celibate priest in the Latin Rite is a matter of discipline. The Vatican can change that if they wanted to (I think). Its just that a priest with no family can devote his life to God much more than a priest that has to take care of the wife and kids.
[/quote]

No, actually it is a specific denomination that calls themselves “The Apostolic Catholic Church of the East.”


#4

If you are talking about the Apostolic Assyrian Catholic Church of the East maybe this will help.

cired.org/aceov.html


#5

[quote=onesimplemind]If you are talking about the Apostolic Assyrian Catholic Church of the East maybe this will help.

cired.org/aceov.html
[/quote]

No. Still not it. They don’t include Assyrian in the title.


#6

Sorry I can’t help, I am just as stumped as you are with that one. The closest I can get to is the Assyrian or Chaldean Catholic Churches.

Maybe its a schismatic Orthodox Church? If they don’t have the sacrament of Penance, then I too am suspicious.


#7

The Apostolic Church of the East is Assyrian. It just isn’t in the title, but it’s the same thing. That’s what they call themselves.


#8

Thanks for the info everyone!


#9

[quote=St.Eric]has anyone ever heard of “The apostolic Catholic Church of the East?”

Are they in communon with Rome? Are they schismatic or heretical?

It sounds suspect to me. The priests can marry after or before they are ordained (I know, the eastern church priests can marry before they are ordained- but I don’t think after as well). They administer the eucharist to anyone regardless of faith. They do not have the sacrement of reconciliation.

Any info on the group would be appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

Hi Eric,

Can you show me where you found that information from? As far as i know, the former bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East, Mar Bawai Soro now seems to be starting his own church calling it “The Holy apostolic Catholic Church of the East” (dropped Assyrian name). This name is being used wherever he goes which is why i think he is starting a new church.

So technicaly this isn’t a church (at least now now) and certainly not Apostolic.


#10

[quote=mike84]Hi Eric,

Can you show me where you found that information from? As far as i know, the former bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East, Mar Bawai Soro now seems to be starting his own church calling it “The Holy apostolic Catholic Church of the East” (dropped Assyrian name). This name is being used wherever he goes which is why i think he is starting a new church.

So technicaly this isn’t a church (at least now now) and certainly not Apostolic.
[/quote]

Actually, if it is being started by a validly ordained bishop then it would be apostolic.


#11

[quote=St.Eric]has anyone ever heard of “The apostolic Catholic Church of the East?”

Are they in communon with Rome? Are they schismatic or heretical?

It sounds suspect to me. The priests can marry after or before they are ordained (I know, the eastern church priests can marry before they are ordained- but I don’t think after as well). They administer the eucharist to anyone regardless of faith. They do not have the sacrement of reconciliation.

Any info on the group would be appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

If they do not practice the sacrament of reconciliation then I do not believe that they are the same as the Assyrian Church of the East. Do you have a website for this specific group you’re talking about? I know that the Assyrian Church of the East does practice open communion, but I am not sure about their priests being allowed to marry after ordination.


#12

[quote=mike84]Hi Eric,

Can you show me where you found that information from? As far as i know, the former bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East, Mar Bawai Soro now seems to be starting his own church calling it “The Holy apostolic Catholic Church of the East” (dropped Assyrian name). This name is being used wherever he goes which is why i think he is starting a new church.

So technicaly this isn’t a church (at least now now) and certainly not Apostolic.
[/quote]

I will try to find something. I happened to read an article on Monday 3/13/06 in our local news paper about an “archbishop” who has moved to our town with his wife. He says he is an archbishop in “The apostolic Catholic Church of the East.” He has no church here and claims for now he is a “roving” bishop overseeing Bishops in Colorado, and a couple of other states. He didn’t quote a website in the article and I don’t have a paper subscription so I am pulling this from my foggy memory. I saw the paper at the gym and quickly read the article. Nothing in the article mentioned Assyrian. The guy was an Episcopal minister until he “took an exam” and was ordained in this current church.


#13

[quote=St.Eric]has anyone ever heard of “The apostolic Catholic Church of the East?”

Are they in communon with Rome? Are they schismatic or heretical?

It sounds suspect to me. The priests can marry after or before they are ordained (I know, the eastern church priests can marry before they are ordained- but I don’t think after as well). They administer the eucharist to anyone regardless of faith. They do not have the sacrement of reconciliation.

Any info on the group would be appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

Eric,

First, let me clear up some misconceptions that have been raised in posts here regarding my brothers and sisters of the Assyrian Churches.

The Assyrian Church does permit marriage post-ordination, altho it is relatively uncommon. Its hierarchs, however, are drawn from the celibate secular and monastic clergy.

The name you ascribe to this Church resembles but is not the name of either of the Assyrian Churches. Cestus is, presumably, thinking of the common older name “Assyrian Church of the East” or the present name of the Church’s separated counterpart, the “Ancient Church of the East”. Neither has ever been commonly known by the name you cite.

As to Mike’s characterization of Mar Bawai as a “former bishop” and his suggestion that Mar Bawai is in the process of establishing his own church, such speculation is unsupported, likely unfounded, and should not be propogated by anyone without a lot more proof than something that they “think”, based on what they heard was happening “wherever he goes”. This would be significantly out of character for a man whose efforts for many years have been directed toward a hope for reconciliation by the 3 Churches among which the Assyro-Chaldean peoples are presently divided. It would also be completely counter to the stance that he has taken before the Assyrian Holy Synod and in a current court case.

Semper Fi is incorrect in his statement that the Assyrians practice “open communion”. The Assyrians have a pastoral agreement with Rome and the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch, under which each Church will provide pastoral care, including the Mysteries, to the faithful of the other Church whenever circumstances demand it (i.e., the unavailability of one’s own clergy). The Assyrians are also open to communing Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Catholics, on request, but that is a far reach from “open communion”.

To return to your original query, if you can come up with any additional info - particularly the name of the “archbishop” - I can likely tell you more about the church in question. From the description that you have provided, the “archbishop” styled himself accurately as a “roving bishop” - a term that perfectly translates episcopus vagante, the label that I would have applied to him.

The likelihood is that his “Church” is a new iteration of an existing ecclesia vagante (that he “tested” to become a hierarch tells me that somewhere out there is whatever entity tested him and conferred this title on him). It’s fairly common in the vagante genre for new hierarchs to strike out on their own with a new ecclesial name, since one of their hallmarks is the unwillingness to be subservient to another hierarch - including the one who “elevated” them to the “episcopate”. Even if this “archbishop” is new to the so-called “independent Catholic/Orthodox movement”, it’s almost a certainty that I’m acquainted with the body and hierarch from which he and his “Church” blossomed.

For those who would like to better understand the term vagante, I suggest you read this thread, particularly post 15, but also 12, 13, and 18.

Many years,

Neil


#14

[quote=Irish Melkite]Eric,

As to Mike’s characterization of Mar Bawai as a “former bishop” and his suggestion that Mar Bawai is in the process of establishing his own church, such speculation is unsupported, likely unfounded, and should not be propogated by anyone without a lot more proof than something that they “think”, based on what they heard was happening “wherever he goes”. This would be significantly out of character for a man whose efforts for many years have been directed toward a hope for reconciliation by the 3 Churches among which the Assyro-Chaldean peoples are presently divided. It would also be completely counter to the stance that he has taken before the Assyrian Holy Synod and in a current court case.

Neil
[/quote]

Thank you Neil. I understand what you mean (except for your emphasis on my “former bishop” part, he is no longer a bishop of ACOE or any other church right now). What i was trying to say is that In every event that is organised in support for him by his supporters, you will see “Holy Apostlic Catholic Church of the East”. From my understanding, it’s as if he is forming a new church.

Here is an example (ad for another event):
img83.imageshack.us/img83/1802/chicago34nh.th.jpg

I’ll be honest and say i dont know much but how would you interpret something like this?


#15

Brother Neil,

They practice “open” communion insofar as that any Christian, regardless of denomination who confesses a belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist would be able to accept. At least this is what I have heard from the 2 Assyrians I know. Is this incorrect? I have to finish moving in a couple hours… so it might take me a couple of weeks to respond or check this thread.


#16

[quote=St.Eric]No, actually it is a specific denomination that calls themselves “The Apostolic Catholic Church of the East.”
[/quote]

Where did you hear about them? Where are they located (is it actually in the east or is it a U.S. denomination)? Do they have a web site that you could post a link to? Thanks.


#17

[quote=Ignatius]Where did you hear about them? Where are they located (is it actually in the east or is it a U.S. denomination)? Do they have a web site that you could post a link to? Thanks.
[/quote]

See post #12


#18

I would like to clarify that His Grace Mar Bawai Soro has stated publicly on NUMEROUS occassions that the Church of the East already has three Patriarchs, is already split in three branches (COE, Chaldean, and Ancient COE) and does not need a fourth Patriarch. He stated that our goal is to CLEAN and REFORM the Church of the East, that is why we are making this stand. As far as the name being “Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of the East”, that is THE ORIGINAL NAME OF THIS ONCE GREAT CHURCH. The church of martyrs. This was the name until it was changed by the current Patriarch and the name ASSYRIAN was added, unnecessarilly.

Unfortunately, in the very near future, there will be some extremely historic documents and court testimony that will be released that will further damage this once great church. I just wish my fellow Assyrians would wake up and stop following people blindly.


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