Eastern Catholicism's Relationship with Western Theology and Tradition


#1

Hope that the Eastern Catholics would take the issues regarding priestly celibacy as well as ad limina visits , an an act of trust and good will from Rome , on what we are capable of , in the power of the Holy Spirit , thus even to be an avenue of more strenght and trust for the Orthodox too , in the power of The Spirit and also as reparation for their not yet being able to accept the gifts of the Dogmas of Immaculate Conception, Assumption and papal infallibilty and thus not being tended onto these truths by The Spirit , as promised by our Lord !

Interestingly too , they are all related to the issue of celibacy , which too is a gift of power of The Spirit , an area that is very much used by the enemy , to bring distortions and destruction , in our times !

The faiths that are heretical and attribute a carnal nature to even The Father and thus deny the virgin birth, promising endless carnal pleausre as a reward in heaven ( ?did The lord mean this when He mentions about the 'worm that shall not die ' ! ) and these fallen powers are pushing for larger roles worldwide !

The Church would like Her children , to embrace the power of The Spirit , like all catholics are also expected to , in area of chastity in and out of marriage as well as celibacy where it is expected and blessed ,in order to empower the whole Church and even all humanity !

Thus filled with The Spirit , her priest's voices then can help to fill the hearers of their voice too , with The Spirit , like that of the Bl.Mother ( who was herself concieved , in the power of spoken word , by her holy parents and not by carnal union , as per tradition and unofficial revelatiosns of bl.Emmerich - this ofcourse not same as the Incarnation , in which God Himself takes on human nature ! )

The importance of this Dogma gets only clearer as we look at our own turbulent times and contrast same with the power The Lord wants to share with us !

The Adlimina visits too can be seen as an occasion of pilgrimage to the holy sites in Rome as well as occasion to show honor to the real Universal Patriarch , thus to make repaartion for the error of that title that set off the whole East West divde , in 588 , when the Patriarch of Constantinople laid claim to that title , in opposition to the papacy, probably realising little that MOhammmed was in his 18th year that very same year !

The other aspect of blessing of those visits would be since the Holy Father has been prevented from making visits to Russia , this too could be an act of reparation !

Thus, we in the East can be doubly thankful , for our gifts and blessings when they are seen for what they are !


#2

[quote="Josephene, post:1, topic:286280"]
like that of t*he Bl.Mother ( who was herself concieved , in the power of spoken word , by her holy parents and not by carnal union *, as per tradition and unofficial revelatiosns of bl.Emmerich - this ofcourse not same as the Incarnation , in which God Himself takes on human nature ! )

The importance of this Dogma gets only clearer as we look at our own turbulent times and contrast same with the power The Lord wants to share with us !

[/quote]

I just need a little clarification here ...

Are you saying that Saint Mary the holy Theotokos was conceived without sex? And this information has been communicated to us through blessed Anna Katharina Emmerick?


#3

[quote="Hesychios, post:2, topic:286280"]
I just need a little clarification here ...

Are you saying that Saint Mary the holy Theotokos was conceived without sex? And this information has been communicated to us through blessed Anna Katharina Emmerick?

[/quote]

That is true ; it is not official Church teaching but seems part of tradition of even Muslims and thus surprised that you are surprised at this ! :)

Do see the wisdom of The Church , in not making it official, since that might be seen as being unduly negative about the gift of our human nature as it is now , that we use with gratitude and awe of sacredness .

Beauty of this revelation seems in how it so well helps to clarify the power of the spoken Word , as when the priests utter the words of absolution as well as consecration - Persona Christi and The Lord invites us to the very great act of faith and trust from love , that those words make His real presence in the bread and wine ..that we in turn , can also make His presence into more lives - calling on His powerful Name , with its mercy , into lives, situations ..inviting in the Mother of The Word , into our homes , nations ..again and again ..so that , just as She is assumed into heaven, we too ..all of humanity even, gets more and more 'assumed ' into the never ending glory of the light and love of our Father ...and who knows , may be our words of praise and gratitude , in harmony with that of the angels and of saints - what might ensue from same ..like countless stars ..or ? even life itself !

Such truths and revelations may be important for our times, to counter the enemie's lies , as attacks against faith !

Interesting too how science talks about how the smallest particle n creation is vibratory energy .as in spoken word !

Thus , not that hard to see that the discordance in the song of God's universe is being set right , through the power of the Word and God , in His abundant mercy, giving us bite size illustrations of same , such as when Zacharias the father of The Baptist, in his unbelief , is made to be mute ..making one wonder what might have been otherwise,...

Yet, he too serves to highlight the truth of the stupendous act of faith by our Bl.Mother,- the New Eve, who was brought forth , may be as per God's original plan for Adam and Eve, to have brought forh holy children, in total harmony and self control, in the power of the word, and in the image of The Father ..( Bl.Emmerich's book has beautiful mention of this too .)

' When Elisabeth heard her voice ( of Bl.Mother's ) she was filled with the Holy Spirit and the baby leapt in her womb ..' - time honored words , we sing out with joy ..

May the voice of The Mother and of The Church be also heard , to fill many, with The Spirit , that we too leap for joy - in what a good God and Father we have ! :)


#4

[quote="Josephene, post:3, topic:286280"]
That is true ; it is not official Church teaching but seems part of tradition of even Muslims and thus surprised that you are surprised at this ! :)

[/quote]

So, blessed Katharina Emmerick agrees with Muslims on this point, that the Blessed Virgin was conceived by the speech or conversation of her parents?

Do you have a reference that Muslims believe or teach this? In which Surah will I find it?

And you believe it too I see.

Do you know if this is a widespread teaching or conviction among Roman Catholics? Are there books or websites that teach this from a Roman Catholic perspective?

Thank You


#5

Not all that familar with very many Muslim teachings or persons ; Bl.Emmerich's writings are probably gettting more widespread - unsure as to the extent of that too , yet , the ring of truth to it is free to be rejected or accepted - The Church leaves one free !

Blessings !


#6

[quote="Hesychios, post:4, topic:286280"]
So, blessed Katharina Emmerick agrees with Muslims on this point, that the Blessed Virgin was conceived by the speech or conversation of her parents?

Do you have a reference that Muslims believe or teach this? In which Surah will I find it?

And you believe it too I see.

Do you know if this is a widespread teaching or conviction among Roman Catholics? Are there books or websites that teach this from a Roman Catholic perspective?

Thank You

[/quote]

While Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's books are certainly becoming more widespread since the film The Passion of the Christ, I would imagine/hope that most people read them with a critical eye, especially this stuff about the Virgin being conceived without the necessary sexual intercourse between her parents. I know this particular belief is NOT widespread among Roman Catholics, and I would imagine the current Holy Father would have a few choice words on the matter. I've heard other strange things along these lines coming from the writings of Blessed Anne, which is one of the reasons I always avoided them as a Roman Catholic, and continue to do so now as a Melkite. There's just no point in putting any stock in private revelation.

Plus the idea flies in the face of the age-old tradition of the meeting of Joachim and Anne at the "Golden Gate."


#7

[quote="Phillip_Rolfes, post:6, topic:286280"]

Plus the idea flies in the face of the age-old tradition of the meeting of Joachim and Anne at the "Golden Gate."

[/quote]

Not to derail the thread, but where can I find information on this tradition?


#8

[quote="ThatOneGuy92, post:7, topic:286280"]
Not to derail the thread, but where can I find information on this tradition?

[/quote]

A good place to start would be by checking out the texts for the feast of the Birth of the Mother of God. Also check out the Protoevangelium of St. James: newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm. It's rather long, but it relates the whole story. I know it's not a part of Scripture, but it enjoyed a great deal of popularity during the Patristic period, and I believe was also the foundational source for the Byzantine liturgical texts for the feast. :thumbsup:


#9

[quote="Phillip_Rolfes, post:8, topic:286280"]
A good place to start would be by checking out the texts for the feast of the Birth of the Mother of God. Also check out the Protoevangelium of St. James: newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm. It's rather long, but it relates the whole story. I know it's not a part of Scripture, but it enjoyed a great deal of popularity during the Patristic period, and I believe was also the foundational source for the Byzantine liturgical texts for the feast. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

Thanks very much, Phillip. :)

And now, folks, back to your regular programming! :D:D:D


#10

theephesus.com/house%20of%20virgin%20mary.html - on the discovery of the house in Ephesus , where Bl.Mother spent her last days ; this had become unknown to The Church , until brought to attention through writings of Bl.Emmerich ; it is now a major pilgrimage center , for both Muslims and Christians .

Rather endearing to see that, in Turkish, the place is called Maryemana - house of Mary ; 'mana ' as a term for house is prevalent in other Eastern languages too !

Unsure if any connection to the manna mentioned in O.T !

She mentions how the Bl.Mother had an episode wherein she fell in a near death like state , while in Jerusalem for the council and even a place was prepared for her ; this would explain the circumstance of the Church of Dormition , in Jerusalem .

True, like any private revelations inThe Church , one does not have to accept any of it , other than for the joy of better grasp of the depth of truth !


#11

[quote="Phillip_Rolfes, post:6, topic:286280"]

Plus the idea flies in the face of the age-old tradition of the meeting of Joachim and Anne at the "Golden Gate."

[/quote]

:confused: Not much privacy there ...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTVIMNMeg6YKguBtSJdKfH4dJD8FFoKCuooiVDtfC16R16rIE19Q

I wonder if this was one of Solomon's fabled 'six chambered gates' ?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB-u6t4qnDrawaiRlNy0ph-6fHaysl6r4jktLEyEDddT5odpcR

OK, forget the bad jokes ;) I know the tradition :)


#12

[quote="ThatOneGuy92, post:9, topic:286280"]
Thanks very much, Phillip. :)

And now, folks, back to your regular programming! :D:D:D

[/quote]

amazon.com/The-Life-Blessed-Virgin-Mary/dp/0895550482#_ - This book comprising the part of the visions relating of life of The Virgin narrates the event of her conception , in a poetic , mystical manner and we know that the author is already a Blessed in The Church .

Unusure if the one about the account of the creation of Adam and Eve , with the more explicit mention of the original plan for procreation is mentioned in this volume or only in the 4 volume set .

As we come to these last days of another May , esp. dedicated to the honor of The Virgin, may the papal intention of the month for missions, that She accompany all missionaries , be fulfilled in abundance , esp.for all our bishops and priests too , in every journey , whether it is as close as to the confessional and altar or to Rome - for the mission of bringing the infilling of The Spirit , thus driving away the enemy instigated wars and turmoils , helping all to trust more in the goodness that The Lord has granted His Church , through the office of Papacy too !

Glory be , to our Thrice Holy God !


#13

Not having followed at all the now deleted thread on this topic , hoping that sharing some perspectives would not tread unduly on any toes !

The current thread , on the adlimina visits in thissection of the forums also discusses some pertinent issues .

The Eastern Catholics are in an enviable position to be peacemakers , through justice ..

And for that to happen , we may have to tread the history back to Constantinople and Hagia Sophia .. ..

This maginificent Cathedral was dedicated , in the year 360 ( 6x6 x10 ! ) , with an icon of our Lord , as a FEMALE! to equate Him, with the created wisdom , personified in the Old Testament !

Plagues , earthquakes etc follow !

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ' , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,,,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East ..

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !

Year 589 - the Council in Spain is led to make some reparation , ascribiing the rightful role of The Son , in sending forth the Spirit ..

Sadly , instead of helping things along , by givinng honor to our Lord who had declared - 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father ' and had called the Apostles 'children' atleast on 3 occasions , this truth also gets used for furthur divisions ..

The Church , led by The Spirit of truth, meanwhile gets led into 'all truth ' - including God's goodness to our Mother , in granting Her the role in the New Creation , as the New Eve - including the privilege of being concieved in the mystery of Immaculate nature , by her holy parents ..to be able to accept with total trust , the awesome , supernatural mystery of Incarnation - when we recognise how in the Jewish custom, a female is not even allowed in the holy of holies , gives us an idea of the extent of trust such an act would entail - to undo the lack of trust of our first parents !

And we are then led furthur , to the goodness of our Father , for our sake too , who rewards Her by not just ' falling asleep ' but assuming Her , into heaven ; by asking us to believe in same,with the certainity of a Dogma , we thus are being led more into grasping the dignity of our human nature , at a time when we could easily loose sight of same ; also to help us of the certainity of the Motherly help and love that many need and yearn for , in these times - since She is the enemy of our enemy !

Granting too , for The Church , in these confusing times, the gift of Dogma of papal infallibilty , again empowering us with the trust needed that by taking in these essential guidelines to walk the narrow path confidantly , we are spared much !

Thus, we come to the issues of holiness in marriage , priestly celibacy - both may be even requiring heroic holiness , in our times !

And the Church trustingly tell us - we can , esp. so , if we embrace with trust the Dogmas of our faith too , to empower our nature , in The Spirit .

Thus , in union with The Lord's will , offering up all thoughts, words and deeds, including adlimina visits, or even the failings and call for mercy , all of it to become powerful occasions for for the infilling of The Spirit , all through The Church ,..

for the cause of unity ..and all the tremendous fruit that can come from same , as has been partially witnessed by efforts of esp. Pope John Paul11 , in the fall of communism !

Thus , the Cardinal's words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members ..this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !

 Blessings !

#14

I would like to point out, because this has also been brought up in another thread, that while Blessed Anne Emmerich's personal sanctity is not questioned, the authenticity and theological integrity of the abovementioned works have been widely condemned. The two works published by Clemens Brentano are probably fabrications (not written by Emmerich) and contain doctrinal errors that were possibly enhanced by the use of extra-Biblical sources such as apocryphal gospels. I would be extremely wary of anyone promoting these false writings.


#15

[quote="Josephene, post:13, topic:286280"]
N

Thus , the Cardinal's words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members ..this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !

[/quote]

O! Very confusing contraction of history to its important "ultramontane" moments. But what is this concerning such - caste system which keeps "them" from being faithful to Lord's mission. Perhaps I misunderstand - what is the accusation of "caste system" meaning???? Perhaps language problem for non English speakers - perhaps some kind hidden (from me) profound meaning.


#16

In light of this article on CatholicCulture.org and lack of evidence to the contrary, I may have been hasty in saying that there are doctrinal errors in Emmerich's writings. Indeed, the article says that the writings have been recommended by holy priests, bishops, and even St. John Neumann, so I retract my opinion, and I blame a very poorly written Wikipedia article for most of this...


#17

[quote="Volodymyr, post:15, topic:286280"]
O! Very confusing contraction of history to its important "ultramontane" moments. But what is this concerning such - caste system which keeps "them" from being faithful to Lord's mission. Perhaps I misunderstand - what is the accusation of "caste system" meaning???? Perhaps language problem for non English speakers - perhaps some kind hidden (from me) profound meaning.

[/quote]

No, dear brother. I think your command of English is perfect in this instance. :(


#18

[quote="Elizium23, post:16, topic:286280"]
In light of this article on CatholicCulture.org and lack of evidence to the contrary, I may have been hasty in saying that there are doctrinal errors in Emmerich's writings. Indeed, the article says that the writings have been recommended by holy priests, bishops, and even St. John Neumann, so I retract my opinion, and I blame a very poorly written Wikipedia article for most of this...

[/quote]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Catherine_Emmerich -

Bl.Emmerich reportedly was illiterate , thus depended on Brentano for her writings ; thus , the comment that she did not wirte down the visions has to be very true ; having read how Brentano had converted from having been an athiest , from his experince , unusre if he would fabricate data , even though, like in all visions, subjective errors could be there ; yet , have not read anything about 'widespread condemnations ' and the finding of Bl.Mother's house in Ephesus based on her writings is pretty impressive - almost as though God sort of kept this mystery , to help authenticate the writings, for those who wish to !
Peace !


#19

[quote="Volodymyr, post:15, topic:286280"]
O! Very confusing contraction of history to its important "ultramontane" moments. But what is this concerning such - caste system which keeps "them" from being faithful to Lord's mission. Perhaps I misunderstand - what is the accusation of "caste system" meaning???? Perhaps language problem for non English speakers - perhaps some kind hidden (from me) profound meaning.

[/quote]

Your unfamiliarity with the term ' caste system mentality ' is a blessing and does not have any hidden meaning - those of us who are familiar with that term would recognise same for what it is , as an area where we too say - " forgive us our trespasses... "

Peace !


#20

Wow, even managed to place Mohammed in that article. :confused:


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