Eastern Mystic comparisons to Jesus and St. Paul

A lot of people spend time identifying what distinguishes Catholicism from other religions.

Seems like I like to play the “opposite game” a lot, and this is not exception.

Several years ago I decided to dedicate my remaining years to looking for unity of the entire Mystical Body of Christ, which technically should include all human beings, or if not that was what I was after.

One thing I like to get good at, is seeing the similarities. I want to find what is common in our thinking, much more than identify what is different. That isn’t an interesting problem to me because others have worked it well so I am a small voice there. Not too many people look at what unites us with those who “believe differently” – even though we all share approximately the same “human condition” in most civilized countries. So I think my chances of being useful are better off this way, and it’s something I really like to do.

So here. A guy today on facebook posted a quote by Rajneesh aka “Osho” (1931-1990) who was a popular Indian mystic who worked with Ghandi. I thought, "hey wow every sentence sounds like something I’ve heard in the Bible.

So here it is. After many years of threatening to write papers highlighting similarities between religions (and ultimately between religious practices and psychological research). these are just some initial notes, so I don’t know yet how to organize all of it but I wanted to show everybody a taste of it.

Here is the quote by Osho, that my friend posted.

Osho
“The guide is not outside, the guide is within you. One has to go deeper into one’s own being to find the guide. Once the inner guide is found there are no more mistakes, no repentance, no guilt. There is no question of doing good or doing bad. One walks in light and one walks lightly because the head and the burden of the head is no more there. And when one walks in light and walks lightly, life becomes laughter, love, joy.”

Osho: The guide is not outside, the guide is within you.

Bible - Jesus:

John 7:37-
37 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as scripture says:
‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’”
39 He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

… so the Spirit is the living water flowing from within. So the living water from within is connected with his quenching a thirst. So now to connect the Spirit with guide:

John 14:15-25
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, “Master, [then] what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

25 “I have told you this while I am with you. 26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you.*

Osho: Once the inner guide is found there are no more mistakes, no repentance, no guilt. There is no question of doing good or doing bad.

Bible – St. Paul:

Rom 8
1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death.
Osho: One walks in light and one walks lightly because the head and the burden of the head is no more there.

Bible – Jesus:
John 9
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Matt 11
28 “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”

Osho: And when one walks in light and walks lightly, life becomes laughter, love, joy."

Bible – St. Paul:
Gal 5: (about “fruit of the spirit” – what you do when spirit-led)
22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. 26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

Sounds like New Age gobbledygook to me. :slight_smile:

+JMJ+

I have to agree with Techno2000 here:

It is also interesting what was in his signature: The Devil will tell you a thousand truths just to slip in one lie. And that seems to be true here. All of Osho’s writings seem to match what the Scriptures say, except for one major detail: there is no mention of God or the Holy Spirit. All of Osho’s writings that you posted talked about “the guide within you.” Who is this guide? I do not think it is the Holy Spirit unless you can give proof that it is.

That Jones shall worship the god within him turns out ultimately to mean that Jones shall worship Jones. Let Jones worship the sun or moon, anything rather than the Inner Light; let Jones worship cats or crocodiles, if he can find any in his street, but not the god within. Christianity came into the world firstly in order to assert with violence that a man had not only to look inwards, but to look outwards, to behold with astonishment and enthusiasm a divine company and a divine captain. The only fun of being a Christian was that a man was not left alone with the Inner Light, but definitely recognized an outer light, fair as the sun, clear as the moon, terrible as an army with banners.

G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

I agree. I challenge myself to find “Christian themes” in “unlikely places”. :thumbsup:

I like your comment about the thousand lies. I usually don’t notice signatures so I’m glad you mentioned that.

Yes I do not recommend that a Catholic who wants to stay orthodox, actually try to draw an exact equivalent because not only do the professed beliefs differ, the cultural context is unique to every religion. I like to find as much “common ground” as I can, so that I may have to things to compare that seem to speak to a common theme in the “human condition” whatever that is. Once I find a commonality, it can be compared and contrasted. To assume that the Church would draw the same conclusions is without merit.

I like to see things from many points of view, including myself and my ideas. I like to hear what people have to say who agree with me, and disagree with me, and even the ones that hate me – those are the ones I would do well not to ignore.

But when the dust settles, you need to verify with Catholic sources. And frankly even Catholic authors both secular and religious, it really pays to follow up if there is a matter I think is really important to understand. Like for example I have yet to hear “commentary” on issues involving killing in self-defense, that are any more straightforward than the CCC itself.

So yes I think the Holy Spirit is approximately what this guy is trying to point at and doesn’t have the terminology we have to describe it. But I don’t represent it as equivalent to Church teaching, just something to check out what others have come up with.

Lots of people like to stay in the home base zone. I like to explore and then touch back, because I feel like I appreciate my own home better when I know what others see when they look from the outside. Really I got the idea from others who like to compare like this, but I sense there aren’t a lot who do, proportional to the population. :cool:

MS

Gosh I suppose this qualifies for “Non-Catholic” religions, but I was hoping to show that what they say can be much like Catholicism more than trying to explain eastern ones.

So I posted on the spirituality forum because my message is a Catholic message for other Catholics, about how we view this religion. If I’m in a group that already is talking about different religions, then I’m preaching to the choir so thank you choir for opening your mind to discuss non-Catholic thinking.

I have no more to preach on this topic. It was an attempt to enrichen Catholics but it wasn’t working there so it may as well be here. That said, if you find this worth commenting about here, please go for it. Just because they didn’t want to hear me over there, doesn’t mean I don’t want to talk to anybody over here.

Nor am I complaining about the thread being moved. It probably had already served any of my purpose is was going to serve, so it’s all good.

A problem here. 1 John 1 says the opposite:
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

peace
steve

That’s a good point. But let’s take a look at Rom 8 for another aspect of this:

1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. 6 The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. 7 For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

There is a rich mystical and contemplative tradition in Catholicism that one could explore. Of contemporary writers, you might find Thomas Merton quite interesting. Known to his fellow Trappists as Father Lewis, he was a priest, monk and prolific writer who once sought to live as a hermit at his monestery. His six (I believe that is the number) posthumously published Journals are exceptional spiritual reading.

Now, there could be replys advising you that Merton was at times something of a maverick who did not always tow the line. It matters not. He is simply exploring the meaning of a truly spiritual life and the possible ways to attain it, a thing he does not believe can be reached by simply following, by external actions alone, a set of rules learned by rote. Rather, it becomes apparent he believes salvation requires a radical internal transformation. He is very wise and deeply spiritual.

Yes I read some, and just starting up inquiring with Secular Franciscans and it’s nice to sit down with Catlholics with and honest desire for true love.

And there was no God in Osho. All the similarities in the world counts for nothing if there is no God. Unfortunately, the real world is good/bad, not the one Osho’s inner guide declaration of no good/bad. All of these is self-centered and not God. And assumed the arrogance that self has all the answers.

Let me share my experience during those dark days. I was seduced by Astral Projection/OOBEs/Lucid Dreaming. The thought of meeting your dead relatives/loved ones and talking to them. Traveling to distant lands at the speed of thought. In those realms, magically a guide appears to instruct you of ins/outs of that world. Beings of light. etc. But not a single word of God. And they seduce you with what you can do with these capabilities. I was an idiot. Period.

Later I discovered that the Bible already warned us that devils come disguised as beings of light. And I wonder to myself all these people with these wonderful capabilities, why didn’t they make the world a better place to live? They won’t because that is a godless world they are in. The first thing they try to sell is that You can do all these things without God. That is where the devil smarts is. If you don’t know about God, you are his.

My word of advice: stay away. We are not as strong as we think. God kick my butt back to the Church where I was faltering for a long time. I shudder to think where I could have ended up if that u-turn wasn’t made. Mysticism is sexy but it is often a journey not in the light.

If you can’t see God in everyone, then you have some work to do.

Humans were made in the image of God. That includes non-Catholics. If you believe that only those with “proper religion” are made in the image of God, then I pray your eyes may become opened.

My word of advice: stay away. We are not as strong as we think. God kick my butt back to the Church where I was faltering for a long time. I shudder to think where I could have ended up if that u-turn wasn’t made. Mysticism is sexy but it is often a journey not in the light.

If this causes you fear, or if your faith is weak and hearing someone espouse their beliefs is going to shake your faith in your own, then your faith in your own needs quite a bit of work.

My intent is to help unite the world. Some people feel safer sticking to home. Others venture out and see what others are doing and try to find unity among all people, not just the “chosen ones.” – so that’s cool if you want to stay at home with Peter, while Paul and I go out an evangelize. :cool:

God is everywhere, but that comment does not tell me anything about Osho’s view on God. Does he believe in the Christian God ? Does he preach the Christian God? He doesn’t. He preaches love, but not the Christian love but sexual type.

Humans were made in the image of God. That includes non-Catholics. If you believe that only those with “proper religion” are made in the image of God, then I pray your eyes may become opened.

Yes, I know all humans were made in the image of God. My belief is irrelevant but it is not what you thought it is. But let us not get diverted. Did Osho mentioned God in any of that verbage you have provided? If God is there, why didn’t he mentioned Him? Yes my eyes are opened. Thank you very much. I want to hear that God’s Words are being preached. What you provided is not there. Similar but no God can be found. Only “self”.

If this causes you fear, or if your faith is weak and hearing someone espouse their beliefs is going to shake your faith in your own, then your faith in your own needs quite a bit of work.

My intent is to help unite the world. Some people feel safer sticking to home. Others venture out and see what others are doing and try to find unity among all people, not just the “chosen ones.” – so that’s cool if you want to stay at home with Peter, while Paul and I go out an evangelize. :cool:

Yes, if it causes one’s faith to fail, one should fear. If another gospel is being preached, we should be wary of it. Your intent is noble, by all means do go out and evangelize but do preach the Good News. Where is the Good News in Osho’s verbage you have provided? Are you going out to preach using Osho’s message or the Good News as Christ intended? There is no repentance, no salvation in Osho’s message. The Gospel of Peter and Paul is the same. Written differently, explained differently, but the same. I don’t understand why you need to differentiate between Peter and Paul. Is there a reason?

Out of curiosity, why are you brandishing Osho’s teachings? This guy is not a role model for Christians. Google “Rajneesh” and I find it difficult why you think you need to compare Christianity with what he was selling. Rajneesh is not even remotely comparable to Jesus or Paul. Try some other gurus. He lives a life of luxury, practiced or taught sexual freedom, lied to local building authorities, teaches stuff like :

You can be a Christ: Why be a Christian?

Let me be your death and resurrection.

Nobody is a sinner. Even while you are in the darkest hole of your life, you are still divine: you cannot lose your divinity. I tell you, there is no need for salvation, it is within you

….disobedience is not a sin, but a part of growth.

God is neither a he nor a she….if you say he is a she, I will say he is a he and if you say he is a he, I will say he is a she….whatever your belief is, I’m going to destroy it….
equip.org/article/the-rajneesh-cult/

If all the above is taught by this guy, I am perfectly happy with my “proper religion”.

Oh yes, my faith still requires a lot of work. You seem fairly confident that you have adequate preparation. Good on you.

Another wolf in sheep’s clothing. :frowning:

Are you talking about ericc or about Osho? If you’re talking about Osho than this comment also applies to you.

I thought I made it pretty clear this has nothing to do with sound doctrine, nor am I claiming that Osho’s writings are Imprimutar-ready and completely compatible in every detail with Catholic doctrine.

I also made it clear I was looking for conceptual similarities, not a point-by-point aggreement. But of course I am among people who seek to highlight division and completely missed the whole thing about concept.

ericc you are demonstrating the whole reason I’m doing this. Try to get off your passion to tell people how wrong they are, and how anybody who thinks differently than you do about religion is off base and is dangerous.

You must live a pretty fearful life anytime you are outside the Church, and probably inside. If you consider people with religious beliefs tantamount to wolves, then you can probably identify with other religious organizations who put people to death for unorthodoxy.

Or if you’re talking about me, then watch out because you’ll never know how I may appear to you next. :smiley:

In short, you are placing doctrine and details over love.

You cannot see love in someone who you believe, thinks so differently than you that their concept of “love” isn’t even valid.

This is why Jesus talked in parables and riddles. To thwart the ego’s insatiable desire to identify how it is unique and superior to others. Because it’s about both the trees, and the forest.

1 Cor 1:17-25

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

Paradox of the Cross. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

I guess here we are with all the wise ones, who are advising we make sure we have everything figured out better than anybody else. And since we have it all figured out, than anybody who has a different way of looking at the same thing, is wrong.

Matt 13:10-15
The disciples approached him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said to them in reply, “Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted. To anyone who has, more will be given[e] and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.’ Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says:

‘You shall indeed hear but not understand,
you shall indeed look but never see.
Gross is the heart of this people,
they will hardly hear with their ears,
they have closed their eyes,
lest they see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart and be converted,
and I heal them.’

Let’s put it this way… if you intend to prove Osho isn’t Catholic, then you are extra baggage on this thread because we all know that right from the getgo.

Can’t you even play the game of finding something common with someone who thinks differently than you?

Do you think Osho ever had fear? Loved anything? Been hungry? Been confused or angry?

What is the core teachings of Jesus? Love your enemy, forgiveness, and that what religious group or sect you belong to is not as important as what’s in your heart?

Or are the core teachings of Jesus that we resist acknowledging another human being who may think differently than us, might have anything relevant to say about the things we experience in common? As in another human being, made in the image of God.

Tell me this: was Osho made in the image of God?

If you can’t even suspend your analytical compulsion to Be Right so that others may by comparison Be Wrong for one thread, then you are making the case for I should make more threads like this. :thumbsup:

Oh yes, you’ve already answered the question in my previous post. That was quick! :stuck_out_tongue:

Apparently Osho, unlike “actual humans,” was NOT born in the image of God, if I understand you right.

I agree. God always was, is now and ever shall be. Why would anyone conclude that God (not a person) is a Christian? Chistianity is the Word revealed, yes, the very word of God in Scripture but named after Jesus the Christ by man. Call it what you will, but there is but one God. And that was so long before Christianity (infinity so). It is the very height of arrogance to conclude humanity had no knowledge of God before the Christian era.

Empty the mind of all thought. If we are successful, what is there? Nothing. It is Pure Being. Pure Being is Nothing (no-thing), and Nothing is Pure Being. Pure Being becomes Nothing, and Nothing becomes Pure Being. What IS necessarily exists, even when it is termed nothingness. But Pure Being and Nothingness are not the same thing either. The slightest thought, even its tiniest inkling, is a Becoming. It brings one back to time. Realization only comes with the annihilation of self and ego and is never attained by the self. The notion that it could is again only arrogance.This is an essential teaching in Eastern religions, and it is often misunderstood.

There are many Catholic saints that were Mystics who kept to the sacraments and to orthodox Catholicism. But this is not the way for everyone, and I’d say it is not a way advisable, or even accessible, for those whose faith is grounded in external actions alone. What is first necessary is a firm internal grounding in Christian (or Catholic) teaching and faith. It is not the way for everyone but a mistake to say it is not a way for anyone.

Be not deterred by sideshows. Look to the writings and biographies of the many Catholic Mystics.

+JMJ+

You do realize that according to the quotes you just cited you are the one who is wise in the world, right? “…but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…”

That is what we have been saying all along here: there is no Christ crucified in any of Osho’s writings. What you are doing is what the world is saying, that there are similarities in the world’s religions and beliefs. But us, we say there is a big difference in having God out of the picture.

I have no problem with Christian Mysticism because it is God-centered. I have an issue with Eastern mysticism because it is not God-centered but inner-looking self. Yes, Eastern Mysticism may have some truths but mixed with a lot of non-truths. Many are not educated sufficiently to distinguish the truths from the untruths. Message #1 from Osho may sound Christian-like. But other messages becomes gray and murky and sometimes outright non-Christian in nature. If one wants to discuss and educate others about Mysticism, I am more than open to listen to Christian Mysticism, but not from a person whose philosophy and practice is so far off from Christian thought. And not all Christian Mysticism thought is Church sanctioned. How would the average Christian discern all these? I flipped through “THE BOOK An Introduction to the Teachings of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh( aka Osho)”. This is what he had to say about Abortion:

Abortion is not a sin; in this overpopulated world abortion is a virtue. And if abortion is a sin then the Polack Pope and Mother Teresa and company are responsible for it because they are against contraceptives, they are against birth control methods, they are against the pill. These are the people who are the cause of all abortions, they are responsible. To me they are great criminals!

And this about Christian Conversion:

And the most unconvinced of all these were the Christians for the simple reason that the Jews had crucified Jesus. Now there was a great fear in the followers. When Jesus left the world, the followers were in a deep darkness: their founder had been crucified with two criminals, thieves on both sides. He was treated like a criminal and he could not manage to do any miracle on the cross. There was a great shaking of their foundations; they were very shaky, they were not grounded. They were very much afraid: “Who knows? We have fallen into a trap. Jesus may not have been the right messiah, because the Jews could not recognize him. Great scholars, rabbis, saints, they could not recognize him at all. Who knows?” That doubt persisted. The only way to destroy that doubt was to convert as many people to Christianity as possible. “If we can convert the whole earth, then it will be a proof that we are right.”

And there are many more that you wouldn’t want to touch with a 100ft pole.

You mentioned Pure Being, Nothingness. Is this taught by Christ? Or someone else? What is the Christian message that you are trying to convey to the readers here? Show us the Christian message. Show us the Gospel of Matthew/Mark/Luke/John. Where is the salvation story in nothingness? Eastern religions allude that if one achieve nothingness, that is the end result. And you have many reincarnations to get there. No souls need saving. You don’t need Christ at all. You can get there all by yourself or with the help of your guru. Unfortunately, this is not what our faith teaches. Do you see the danger when such thinking starts to creep in?

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