Ecumenism with Lutherans


The looser style will allow Satan to have a freer hand here for sure, but that is no different than most of life, where we have to weigh and judge the fruits of the Holy Spirit, which, I will post again to aid in determining where the Holy Spirit is an is not.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

I hope Lutherans here can separate Catholicism from those who use a title of Catholic. If in doubt look at how the Catholic Church speaks compared to how people here are posting.



What do you think happens to the Souls of those who’s body dies? This might be the difference in understanding about the Saints hearing us. Do you believe that God has Angels that hear us and petition God for us?


That saints hear our prayers?


Don’t do that. You might get some pulled unnecessarily. :scream:


You don’t accept Church teaching on this matter (or any other for that matter) so I don’t see a point in this…


That would assume God didn’t hear us as well. And if He did, He is “confused” what to make of it and a mere Angel being in the presence of God can “change His mind”.


No, that whatever we are capable of doing (e.g., saints hearing prayers, perceiving colors, seeing, etc) is by God granting us the ability.


Oh. Okay yea. God will do Whatever He wants to do.


No, right now I don’t accept the Church’s teaching on it but I might if I was given reference to why Catholics believe it. I’m not hardhearted and I appreciate what I’ve learned and sincerely wish to understand where the teachings come from. That’s all.

Thanks and blessings,



I know this will frustrate people but I’d like to see from Scripture - If shown I would believe.

Thanks and God bless.


(Can’t get more official than the Catechism!)

(I hope the link works — not sure how this board works with URL.)


Just curious — why do you believe in sola scriptura then?

It doesn’t say so anywhere in Scripture that Scripture alone is the source of all truths.

I get that Scripture is written and unchangeable so there’s no chance of “corruption”, but God never says, “Believe in written Word alone.”


Why would this assume that God didn’t hear us?? And a “mere” angel?? God confused?? You have no respect for Holy Things it seems, and clearly do not understand the communion of God and the Saints and Angels. Christ was not ashamed to call the Saints Brothers. And the Saints were not ashamed to be in fear of the Angels holiness. As for God changing His mind, this clearly is in the respect of temporal choices that of course God has foreknown from all eternity, but for the sake of us that are not God, they are changes of mind.


You may have gone a bit over the top there saying I have no reapect for the Holy. Help me if I am wrong that and Angel would he a “mere being” when in the presence of God. I did add that part of presence to alleviate confusion. I am very happy to say pretty much anything would be a “mere” thing (as you stated) when in God’s presence. No matter how Holy.

Oh and I am not the one saying God is confused. Quite the contrary.

So taking all into account. Why would any petition work or be needed if God is this God you are referring to?

Side not: I probably don’t understand it as you understand it. That just means our understanding differ. Nothing more.


At this point I have no other reference point with which to measure such beliefs. If Tradition is so valuable why wasn’t it written down for future generations. Why wouldn’t the inspired writers of the Scriptures not have included the areas that I have concern with.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree at this time. Until I can be convinced otherwise I will continue worshiping the Lord within the Lutheran Church.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this.

In Christ,



That is not frustrating at all. All teaching should be evidenced in the Holy Scripture. But can you explain a little about what you do believe as far as the Souls of the Saints and what Angels do, especially Guardian Angels. It should also be noted that a major point in the Incarnation was the revealing of things that had only been partially understood as if in shadow. So if it does not seem very evident that we should ask the intercession of the Angels and Saints, it could be that the scriptures that show that Angels and Saints do in fact intercede for us, would lead to the development for us to ask them to do so. Christ’s explanations about persistent prayer could then logically be applied to asking for intercession from the Angels and Saints as well.

What do you make of

Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And all of the mentions of Paul praying for the Church and saying that there is great power in these prayers. If you believe that he now is with God and doesn’t suffer from the temptations of the world, why would he cease to pray for us that are still struggling? And if we know he does this, how could we not ask for his and other holy Saints for their prayers?


I’m having a hard time understanding how it is you respect Holy Things. This mentality of viewing Angels and the Holy Virgin and Saints as “mere” beings compared to God is the source of blasphemy. No one is arguing that only God is in His own level of Being, but the Christian teaching is that God became man so that man might become God. And as I mentioned in the scriptures I referred to, Christ has made the Holy Angels and Saints in a way that deserve just as much reverence as we would show to God. Christ makes it very clear that if we mistreat or treat correctly the Angels and Saints, we mistreat or treat correctly Him. True Christians are not afraid of worshipping the creation by showing this reverence to God’s Holy creatures, because they also know that this is all by God’s Grace, while He is by Nature the only one Holy. There is no competition because we are nothing in origin.

Edit: The sentence above can be read wrong to mean that it is okay to worship the creation. It means that the fear of worshipping the creation, which is wrong, is not an issue because the Christian knows the reality of the creature’s origin, nothing.


Tradition is valuable because it is how mortal beings with limited understanding can at least partially grasp and understand God.

Tradition is valuable because God imparted authority to the Church, made up of humans cooperating with the Spirit of Truth.

He didn’t have to. He didn’t have to be born of the Ever-Virgin Mary. He didn’t have to become Incarnate.

But He chose to. That was God’s decision.

We certainly don’t understand God or His ways.

We follow the Church and Her teachings because Jesus Christ wanted the Church to be the means of salvation of souls. And He promised Himself the Church will not fall.

I cannot imagine Jesus establishing the Church and saying, “Oh actually – never mind. The authority to forgive sins? Yea, I’m taking it back.”

Faith is not something to rationally convince ourselves of. In fact, I doubt we even can rationalize and understand the Holy Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection, etc.

Tradition (and the eachings, customs, liturgy, doctrine, Sacraments) is important because that’s what Jesus chose to do.

Scripture doesn’t talk about abortion or gay marriage or transgender ideology or communism or even uses the term Holy Trinity.

So are we free to believe whatever we want?


Let us pray… that all Christians may be united in faith, hope, and love.


luther states you are saved by faith alone and also to sin boldly. The lutherans I know appear to follow this belief system to their own peril. To say they believe in Jesus and then to sin boldly is interesting. I guess that they believe Jesus is God but find it easier to sin boldly at the same time. All of them are passionate anti Catholic, at least the ones I have met. This drive to make the Catholic Church more friendly to lutherans has hurt our Church and has been a grave sin against God.

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