Ecumenism with Lutherans


Luther did not tell anyone to sin boldly.

If you think you are called to evangelize to Muslims, that is really great. There is a need there as well.


Narrow gate, my friend. Narrow gate.


It seems to me that if we recognize not only that pain in each other, that pain caused by our sinful divisions, but also see the work of the Spirit, more common ground can be found.


My mistake. As you speak from a Catholic POV, I of course understand.


For those interested in the context of what Luther actually said.


Well, actually I’m not. I’m continuing Anglican now,but i guess I see the value in these kinds of ceremonial functions. Without them, it seems that unity is a greater distance off.
I don’t think Lutherans should let Luther go anymore than Catholics should let the Pope go. The idea of ecumenism is to work together to overcome differences, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Pope Benedict spoke to this in 2010 when he visited the Lutheran parish in Rome.

"Continuing his homily, delivered off-the-cuff in German, the Holy Father noted how “we hear many complaints about the fact that there are no longer any new developments in ecumenism. Yet”, he insisted, “we can say with gratitude that there are many elements that unite us”.
“We must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar”, he said.
“This”, he went on, "cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men. We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity. Let us hope that He brings us to that goal".

In his short homily there, the Holy Father touched on the range of emotions about ecumenism, as well as the reason why efforts go on. This cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men.
Who can we turn to? We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity.


I don’t think it does, and I certainly don’t think Pope Francis thinks that. He stood firm, as he should have, when approached with inter-communion for that day.
Having a Matins or Vespers service does not signal a breaking down of Catholic or Lutheran doctrine. It only signals that you may be closer than you once were, and you are not enemies.


They shouldn’t. It is disrespectful to the Catholic faithful worshiping there. almost as disrespectful as your opening sentence to this post. It is also, frankly, disrespectful to their own communion.


Theres been a lot of chatter here but I will just state my personal opinion about this whole problem.
When we commemorate the 500 years of the protestant reformation, I doubt that any Catholic actually thinks of it as a good thing.
What the point of ecumenism is bringing the Church together in unity as much as is possible.
I don’t think this necessarily means that the Church will change its doctorine.
And as we can’t really unite in everything without the holy spirit, I believe as this commemoration is here to show that there are SOME things that we agree on, and that in the end, heretics or not, a lot of people want to worship Christ. And that is where the whole point of unity comes into play. We can stay divided if they don’t want to change their doctorines, but we have to unite in our prayers for Christ.
As Paul says in 1 Cor 1:10 :

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought

But later he also says to get away from people who preach falsly, and to hold on to what they were thought (From the Church).

So which of theese 2 is it ?
I think Paul here is expressing the essence of ecumenism.

The ideal here is to be unified in Christ with everything we can be unified, and even Jesus wished for us to be one. But if false teaching appear, we mustn’t conform ourselves to them just for the sake of unity.

If that was the case, the protestants and catholics would have merged a long time ago.
Ecumanism at its core is an approach to understand each other, and despite our differences meet at the cores of our belief, prayer and union in Christ. Just because we believe different things does not mean we should break any contact. If the Church is a part of Christ’s body, and organism if you want to say, it requires comunication , both with the outside and the inside. Communication between each other is what is going to lead to more charity and possibly the changing of certain doctorines in the protestant church.

(Of course with this post I don’t want to say that I believe the protestants are in any way right or that we shouldn’t convert them , and I am repeating this again becase from reading the thread some people think that the church “celebrates” the reformation in a literal sense. It doesn’t .)

The ultimate unity will end up happening in God/Jesus,most likely at his second coming.


I’d like to say I understand you but I don’t. Not at all. You just said that and even tried to justify it.

How do you view God if you are even attempting to explain that? And then I am wrong for stating and I will say it again, no Angel or Saint or even the "ever virgin Mary " can ever be compared to God. They are all servants of God and abide by His requests for whatever and whenever by the simple fact that He is God. I am proclaiming the TOTAL supremacy of the ALL Holy here. Can’t see how that can even be attempted to be challenged. How can anything be disrespected by stating it is inferior to God. That my sir, boggles my mind.

Side note: Your post was quite interesting but it doesn’t do much justice for those ob here trying to claim you are “praying through/to Saints/Mary” and not worshipping them.

Oh and also, blasphemy was the first word coming to my mind when you started to even try and equate ANYTHING to God. But maybe that’s just me. I tend to think God is in His own catagory.


All that is holy is holy because God made them holy.

He created the world and called it good.

God created and sanctified the saints – by God’s will, they are made holy.

Their holiness is from God alone.

There’s a paranoid fear of honoring creatures within the protestant circle. I should know. I was part of that circle.

(Hearing the phrase “Mother of God” was a great shock at first.)

No one is saying saints are greater than God — the implication is from the misunderstanding from the protestant side, not the belief of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Besides, such a claim is preposterous and not even worth refuting.


Not greater, just even relatively close to equal. Maybe read that post again?

Also, claiming you know because you were Protestant makes me go … uhmmmm…

My wife was Catholic for 25 years. I’m sure her opinion won’t carry much weight for you. Get what I’m saying?


There’s nothing in the Catholic doctrine that says any finite creature can be close to Infinite God by nature. If God is close to us, it is through His grace.

Every Protestant fears veneration of saints because they think it’s tantamount to blasphemy. They think it will offend God or somehow detract from adoration and worship. We honor saints because through them God shows His grace and mercy — the divine works of God are made manifest and knowable to us through them. They are reflections of God and give glory to God by their exemplary lives of piety and holiness. They are friends who have gone before us.

You yourself are an example of paranoid protestant anxiety. You think veneration of saints detracts from God. Somehow.

If her reason for not venerating saints is the same as yours, then no, it won’t carry much weight for me.


Every Protestant?


[double post — see below]


(post below…forgot to press “Reply”)


You seem to know me pretty well? An analysis in 2 posts that would take a psychologist 5 sessions.

Oh and I didn’t think her opinion would. As is the exact reason I stated you should maybe choose to refrain from saying you were Protestant as if it means anything to the discussion.


Are Anglicans Protestants in your view?


So do you believe in female ordination and same sex marriage?

Thank you for reading.


You know that not all Lutherans and not all Anglicans ordain women. Some maintain orthodoxy in a lot of ways

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